Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[zoothorn]

I know- batts dead alas/ on charge (old school slr/ aa's). Once stanley knife cut, polyS edges are just rough/ uneven. It'll have to do onoff.

 

Ok once Ive LE foamed the back of 4 pieces, & wedged in (looks so-so/ will put in shims to tighten up @ side tops)..

 

1) am I LE foaming the back 30mm edges > window frame? &

 

2) for screwing in (@ my 10cm intervals all round front edge).. do I pilot hole for each screw thru pb/ batten? 

[Onoff]

How much gap at the back between the 30mm edge and window then?

 

Won't do any harm, a thin line of low expansion foam, make damn sure that's where the boards are going and you might want to mask the window frame with tape knowing what you're like with foam! 

 

You shouldn't need to pilot through the insulated pb. Just mark where the screw is going and go for it with the screw using the cordless and that special bit I linked so you don't over drive the screw. Try and keep the screw square as it goes in. You'll have to figure the best torque setting on your cordless by trial and error.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

Not impressed with TP insulated PB. No idea it was tapered edge. & the piece for the sill I spent ages on is rubbish quality/ the whole polyS is separating from the PB/ had to scrap & do again, but not cut as good as my 1st.. so need to do 3rd time. Whole a'noon just cutting these 4 sections just to fit let alone to start glue in.

 

Gun cleaner.. how does this work.. some sort of red thing hanging off.. & the black '+' top- do I remove this?

 

I've got mild panic coming on now things aren't coming up to par. JesusH.

[Onoff]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Not impressed with TP insulated PB. No idea it was tapered edge. & the piece for the sill I spent ages on is rubbish quality/ the whole polyS is separating from the PB/ had to scrap & do again, but not cut as good as my 1st.. so need to do 3rd time. Whole a'noon just cutting these 4 sections just to fit let alone to start glue in.

 

Gun cleaner.. how does this work.. some sort of red thing hanging off.. & the black '+' top- do I remove this?

 

I've got mild panic coming on now things aren't coming up to par. JesusH.

 

My insulated pb was from Travis Perkins.....and it's spot on. No laminating at all. If yours is crap send them a pic and get some more sent. Can't think how I cut mine...18V cordless circular saw I think...

 

Page 11 of this thread I posted up all about foam guns and cleaner.

 

I hear Nick Knowles and his crew do a lot of work in Wales. Realising why now!

Edited August 9, 2018 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

There's no gap at all in fact.. Im struggling to get the sod in so it doesn't protrude.. the sill's so out of kilter a to b to c, as it was, its a n'mare to the cut the shape right, then the poly edges crumble away.

 

Im very concerned about sticking this awful polystyrene stuff to plaster in the reveal sides/ top, & onto mortar sill (crumbling too.. seems I did too thin). Im just desperate to get these 4 things on before end of night now.

 

 

[zoothorn]

This ins PB stuff doesn't look anything like yours.. the polystyrene's the cheapest/ lightest stuff you find/ dreadful cr*p.. &  just tacked onto the PB & easily separates.. but I can't wait/ re-order as other places dont have it or I have to order it from s'where/ another week min. I just have to go with it.

 

Pg11- thanks i'll note that like pg6 Im trying to follow, very badly I'm afraid so far. Maybe the C'tex job will give me some mojo.. if I can do this tonight.

[Onoff]

Take a break and don't mess up any more.

 

This was the stuff I used but from Travis Perkins. This is a good picture though. The foam is quite dense:

 

https://www.buildingmaterials.co.uk/gyproc-thermaline-plus-insulated-plasterboard.html?

[zoothorn]

Onoff its a total disaster. Had to rip off all 4 sections/ scrape off the glue. whole a'noon's work down the drain.

 

The combination of materials, ones that I have here, are not up to par to be able to do this job. Absolutely not.

 

I get the foam onto the 4 sides & get them in.. but the sides' back bits start to push out (but Ive nothing ready to brace across.. so I need both braces across, & braces up/down then). So I have no choice but to start screwing in the fronts. I'd marked the exact screw positions/ spacings ready. I tested the screws into scrap 1st.  But when it comes to driving in the screws.. as carefully as possible to the correct D (either flush, or say 1mm max sunk into the PB) the PB breaks or 'bruises' into a 2" dip around the screw head, on every single one I tried. So the front edges are all broken, or the screws' heads are protruding 1mm.

 

Its bc the poly &/ or the PB is just too soft.. when you drive a screw in, the PB just squashes down. Too much. When you try as slowly as poss to get the screw down flush.. the PB edge bows down.. then breaks. Every time. Its not possible to do even one screw flush. But what could I do? so I continued 30 or so in main spots (not a single one good) then bailed out pronto/ not acceptable whatsoever/ had to rip off the whole thing in bits. The mess & dust.. & stress of this. I had no idea the foam had already set well so removing has taken most of the last hr. A disaster.

 

Why are there 2 bits in this pack? is there a difference between them, or is one a spare-? its either these, the screws, or the PB or the combination..but believe me: the job cannot be done as it is. These damn 60mm screws cost me £25!!

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Onoff its a total disaster. Had to rip off all 4 sections/ scrape off the glue. whole a'noon's work down the drain.

 

The combination of materials, ones that I have here, are not up to par to be able to do this job. Absolutely not.

 

I get the foam onto the 4 sides & get them in.. but the sides' back bits start to push out (but Ive nothing ready to brace across.. so I need both braces across, & braces up/down then). So I have no choice but to start screwing in the fronts. I'd marked the exact screw positions/ spacings ready. I tested the screws into scrap 1st.  But when it comes to driving in the screws.. as carefully as possible to the correct D (either flush, or say 1mm max sunk into the PB) the PB breaks or 'bruises' into a 2" dip around the screw head, on every single one I tried. So the front edges are all broken, or the screws' heads are protruding 1mm.

 

Its bc the poly &/ or the PB is just too soft.. when you drive a screw in, the PB just squashes down. Too much. When you try as slowly as poss to get the screw down flush.. the PB edge bows down.. then breaks. Every time. Its not possible to do even one screw flush. But what could I do? so I continued 30 or so in main spots (not a single one good) then bailed out pronto/ not acceptable whatsoever/ had to rip off the whole thing in bits. The mess & dust.. & stress of this. I had no idea the foam had already set well so removing has taken most of the last hr. A disaster.

 

Why are there 2 bits in this pack? is there a difference between them, or is one a spare-? its either these, the screws, or the PB or the combination..but believe me: the job cannot be done as it is. These damn 60mm screws cost me £25!!

 

I'm sorry you're having these problems but I showed you photos of mine and said how I braced it yet you failed to have braces on hand! 

 

Get the sill on first and leave to set. You might be trying to do too much at once.

 

The screws knackering the pb? I've done too many to count without this problem. You saw my photos that it can be done and neatly. I'm nothing special believe me! Maybe try and pilot a few and countersink like you suggested, if it's easier for you.

 

What "2 bits" in the pack? Without a pic we're just guessing.

 

Maybe this isn't for you. I appreciate what it's like not having anyone in hand to guide you if you've never done it before. We all have our wobbles but keep complaining about the stress of it all...you need to chill and get over that it's part and parcel of it all I'm afraid. Also the tools we're suggesting are generally what the majority of us have and are needed to do these jobs. Making them fit, do you have a bevel gauge?

 

Step away and post some pics and we'll start afresh. Post a pic of this "crumbly" insulated pb too.

 

[zoothorn]

I had all the braces to hand & some, for the btm to top.. I thought the sides would be pressed in enough didn't need/ as per your eg's (not easy to have both braces t/btm + side to side logistically). But the sides needed them the most, so I wasn't ready. Thats a minor thing tho.

 

I think the only way i can do this job is to use -just- the 2 board (tapered godammit) edges, which has a paper edge which seems to give it more rigidity than a cut edge. The non- papered edges aren't possible to be used, with screws. 100% not with this terrible PB (the worst thing: this leaves me SO concerned about the main PB's, which I have to cut in many places & somehow fix together with screws at even farther peripheries, which will split the whole edges putting in the screws- I can't see how this main PB job is possible at all now.. apart from to leave ALL screws protruded 1mm). That's wasting most of the sheet for just 2 paper-edged sections for the reveal.

 

The tests i did with scrap were on a tapered edge, which I didnt realise had totally different properties to a cut edge. I don't even know what to cut this stuff with. Ive used a stanley knife, going over & over as carefully as possible for 15 mins until Im through.. then carefully trying to cut the polystyrene below, but this just crumbles. A dreadful mess. I don't know what to do.

 

So the only way i can add these reveal sections, is to just glue them/ no screws. If this is possible at all (an infuriating waste of £25 if so). If its not possible/ not sufficient, then I cannot do this reveal at all. But this is holding up eveything else.. & i have another window to do too. Ive wasted 1/2 a sheet on theis mess so far.. so would need another £25 sheet to do the other damn window. £50+ wasted in one a'noon. I cannot afford this.

[zoothorn]

I'll post a pic in a few hrs once batts charged. But its just a mess of ripped off panels. At least the 4 insides are clean/ I just managed to scrape off the residue before it set.. so no dmage to these. I started 2pm > 10pm. A whole day flat out. I cannot believe the results after so much careful prep.

 

Its not a Q of me just not being for it. Its just a Q of not having the right things to do the job. These screws into this PB, via this drill bit simply do not work. I use my makita on a dialy basis for my work, screws/ wood etc, I know exactly how carefully/ gently it can be used. If I cant get one screw in w'out damaging the board, as slowly as possible.. then its not me/ or the makita, its the 3 components I'm using.

 

It seems the screws/ drill bit/ PB you used are not the same as mine here. Same in principle, but not the same items.

 

If I start again, which I will have to- I can't get a builder in now/ & I can't leave this kitchen as it is- I need to go right back to sq1 & get the right things for the job, or find out a way to use what I have in some sort of "compromised" way.

[zoothorn]

Assuming this insulated PB is suitable (??) can you tell me how to cut it correctly. Ive tried a stanley knife/ 4 new blade s & the PB seems cut ok.. maybe (?) but the polystyrene just crumbles a bit so the edge structure under the fairly frail anyway PB edge is compromised > then add the pressure of a screw just 2cm off edge right to flush.. & as it now has less structure below to press down onto,  the edge bows down then splits.

 

If the screws are left protruded, say just before the head touches the surface, this is the last point the PB is happy. One turn further & the edge starts to bends down. 2 turns = head a mite countersunk, the bend increaces. 3 turns = head 1mm protruded/ 1mm in, the bend  is so much as to be a 'bruise' & edge almost splitting. 4 turns & flush = bend turns into dmg/ cracked edge, the now 2" dip around pronounced.  Head just below surface = edge starts to disintegrate/ badly damage.

 

Is damaging the PB edges/ where the screws go in- normal?.. is that just par for the course & you just crack on? I am assuming not.

[zoothorn]

2pm-10pm of flat out work, all ripped off.. (you can see the cr*p PB/ separated section I'd cut had to be redone/ the 1st wasted hr of 8).

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

This is what happens on one of the few decent screws I managed/ this was a good one: 1mm protruded head/ ie not flush, edge squashes down & starts to break.. This is NOT a tapered edge/ this was stanley knife cut w'new blade & extremely carefully too..

 

 

[zoothorn]

A typical poly crumbled edge, cut dilligently/ spent ages on each cut/ as very best I could do..

[zoothorn]

Pack of 2x bits.. seem identical so I'm not sure why 2..

[zoothorn]

Better eg of a typical cut edge, PB seems ok/ sure.. but the polyS below nr always badly compromised like this..

[Onoff]

Totally different type of insulated pb to mine by the look of it. That's eps hence crumbly. Mine is pir as per the pics.

 

32 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

A typical poly crumbled edge, cut dilligently/ spent ages on each cut/ as very best I could do..

 

BUT I can't see what's wrong with that cut edge tbh.

 

I'd show that pic and just that pic of the insulated pb where it's delaminated to the merchant, tell them it's ruined the job and ask for your money back. 

[Onoff]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Better eg of a typical cut edge, PB seems ok/ sure.. but the polyS below nr always badly compromised like this..

 

That really isn't compromised. Just fill with the tiniest of squirts of low exp foam if you're worried.

[Onoff]

41 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

2pm-10pm of flat out work, all ripped off.. (you can see the cr*p PB/ separated section I'd cut had to be redone/ the 1st wasted hr of 8).

 

 

 

 

 

After the screws f**ked up the first piece most people would have stopped rather than continue and shag the rest of the materials.

[Onoff]

Bottom line the pb is different to mine it seems. 

 

I would cut that with a craft type knife with the extending blade. Cut through from the eps side and score into the pb. Then snap, fold and cut through the paper on the other side.

[zoothorn]

The humungus 20kg bag of compound, & roll to stretch round the earth.. & these damn screws (look fancy eh?)

 

TP been good enough to refund for the sheet of ins PB, so that helps me retract ~a few hrs work as it were. Puts me in a better mood. A BIT.

 

So I'm ready to start again. I will & am determined to do this reveal, today, whether just-glued alone/ mostly no screws at all (only way i can conceive of doing it) it will have to be done. I have no choice but do it, even any 1/2 decent-enough way now. One thing good.. is the strength of the foam adhesion. Whether or not I can still use that can tho is another matter.. no idea if its gunged up only trying the clean process once. I woke up fretting that it wasn't 'upside-0down' when i left it with clean stuff in & the foam can back on.. godknows. Even that was up against me last ev.. foam everywhere (the trigger VERY sensitive being a cheapo- I had a woody allen moment again albeit small scale) i thought a hideous foam ghoul might emerge at breakfast lunging at my fruit n fibre.

Edited August 10, 2018 by zoothorn

[newhome]

@zoothorn. Deep breath, start again, post photos as you go, and check at every stage. You probably haven’t been following @Onoff‘s bathroom thread but he is a prolific poster of photos and asks questions as he goes, with photos to illustrate. So keep those batteries topped up and if you feel something is going wrong at any stage take a photo and ask! You’ll get there but pressing on when something doesn’t feel right won’t help. 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Ok cut through the eps side I'll try then. Yup extended craft knife/ done that, yup it is VERY different.

 

What i did do wrong maybe, was put the 4 sections in firmly, all glued (as I thought thats what you did ) but as I had no idea the foam would set so quick/ thought it was a 24 hr thing (till no info on this.. you see my prior point now?), once Id started screws, I had no choice but continue as the top was stuck fairly firm & not in ideal position. I thought they'd help push the foam flat. I assumed too that after a few newbie screws Id get the hang > off on my way. Not so whatsoever.

 

No seriously, the eps is such poor quality that you need every bit of it intact below the PB in order to possibly get any screw not to push the top down & dmg edge.. which it'll still do if you even as-carefully-as, drive it in flush (to every edge bar the tapered paper 2).

 

if I do each one separately I might be able to get the odd screw in, maybe 3 a side & araldite these damaged edges. I need to do test cuts 1st.

 

Its the materials onoff.. not me. Believe me.

[Onoff]

Once the low expansion foam can is on the gun you leave it on until it is empty. You do not take the foam can off to clean in between uses unless you need to change foam types. You use the gun cleaner with the red nozzle on to clean excess, WET foam from around the nozzle (and anything you might get it on accidentally).

 

You undo the knob screw at the back of the gun to adjust the foam flow rate and squeeze the trigger. When finished for the day you turn the knob to close the valve and clean the end. Put it aside and pick up the next day or next week, month etc.

 

When the can is empty: Have an open plastic bag/bin liner ready. Have the gun cleaner at the ready with the red nozzle on. Unscrew the empty can quickly and put straight in the bin bag. Pick up the gun cleaner and use like an aerosol to spray up inside where the can screws on as some foam will be coming out there. Then screw the gun cleaner into the gun and give a blast thru pointing the nozzle into the bin liner. Remove the gun cleaner and screw on your new can of foam.