Patio wall lights

[daiking]

Now the dog can see the rabbit.

 

6 holes for 6 lights, cables need to come through rear block work.

[Nickfromwales]

Now that's progress !! 

What a difference . 

[Onoff]

That looks the mutt's nuts, what a transformation!

 

These LED lights, (like so many now inc pricey ones), have non replaceable bulbs so you ideally want to think about how you might replace them when one packs up. It's replace the whole fitting rather than just the bulb. They'll be easy to fit before back filling and paving but thereafter possible a pita unless you have some flexibility within the cable so you can take the light off of the wall from the front and withdraw that bringing some cable with it to have enough wriggle room to fit the new light. With the swa you would really have to form loops and leave a void behind each light. The double thickness blockwork helps if anything.

 

Backfilling and paving...You might as well be putting it all under concrete! 

 

Beware fitting maintainable junction boxes where you can't get to them. 

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

How about Wago-Capsules? Cheaper than Pratleys

 

https://www.connexbox.com/wagobox-capsule-ip68-adaptable-junction-box-grey.html

 

In and out with the swa. Internal connections using Wagos so maintenance free. Then a short bit of flex in 20mm flexible conduit to each light. 

 

You need the earth plate to keep continuity of the armoured:

 

https://www.connexbox.com/wagobox-capsule-lid-steel-earth-bonding-plate-for-20mm-glands-with-earth-cable.html

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Onoff

[daiking]

16 hours ago, Onoff said:

That looks the mutt's nuts, what a transformation!

 

These LED lights, (like so many now inc pricey ones), have non replaceable bulbs so you ideally want to think about how you might replace them when one packs up. It's replace the whole fitting rather than just the bulb. They'll be easy to fit before back filling and paving but thereafter possible a pita unless you have some flexibility within the cable so you can take the light off of the wall from the front and withdraw that bringing some cable with it to have enough wriggle room to fit the new light. With the swa you would really have to form loops and leave a void behind each light. The double thickness blockwork helps if anything.

 

Backfilling and paving...You might as well be putting it all under concrete! 

 

Beware fitting maintainable junction boxes where you can't get to them. 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s the nub of it, leaving enough room to work. 

 

Taking out the equivalent of the 2nd rear brick might help.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, daiking said:

 

That’s the nub of it, leaving enough room to work. 

 

Taking out the equivalent of the 2nd rear brick might help.

 

Trying to bring the cost of a (still decent) jb down I'm thinking maybe a Wiska / Magic box with gel filling. 

 

I might go and have a play later with a bit of swa & Wagos. The Wiska boxes jump massively in price though from the small 80x80, 110x110mm to the 160x140 size. The bigger one though has superior (easier) glanding via 3 holes at the bottom. Could maybe turn a smaller, square one thru 45deg to still keep the entries on a downward facing face...

 

Tbh you could fill up a cheaper IP6x box with gel still...

 

 

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacturers/Wiska/Boxes_Adaptable_Moulded/index.html

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Onoff

[daiking]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

Trying to bring the cost of a (still decent) jb down I'm thinking maybe a Wiska / Magic box with gel filling. 

 

I might go and have a play later with a bit of swa & Wagos. The Wiska boxes jump massively in price though from the small 80x80, 110x110mm to the 160x140 size. The bigger one though has superior (easier) glanding via 3 holes at the bottom. Could maybe turn a smaller, square one thru 45deg to still keep the entries on a downward facing face...

 

Tbh you could fill up a cheaper IP6x box with gel still...

 

 

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacturers/Wiska/Boxes_Adaptable_Moulded/index.html

 

Do they need to be ip68? 

 

There will be a patio on top so no water soaking through the ground when it rains and they’re significantly higher than the grass level let alone any water table. And sheltered from the usual prevailing wind. I expect these holes to stay dry. Got an idea anyway. 

[daiking]

Step 1 

 

adhere some reasonably strong, reasonably durable with water sheet material to the rear face and drill through sheet and block to put conduit or swa through, reasonably long tail. Using long radius curves against rear of wall for cable/conduit.

Edited April 2, 2018 by daiking

[daiking]

Step 2 once the ground is back filled with stone and compacted and sorted, chase out the rear block, the sheet material stopping the stone falling in the hole. I’m assuming that after compaction there won’t be a large amount of pressure to burst through this skin, it should hold. Then you have more room to terminate the swa into a JB.

[Onoff]

Sounds like a plan. You could back the cavity with a bit of dpm wrapped 3/4" ply...

 

Won't though one brick's width / height (more so) still be a bit awkward to get in an mess around with the jb if it's like a foot back from the face?

 

I'd still go for Wago's in the box. How about this, 110x110x67mm:

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wago-abox-lever-connector-222-series-junction-box/9390G?

 

I've got one in the motor thinking about it. Comes with x5 3-way Wagos which is ideal; feed in, feed out and off to the light. The jb would have to lay on it's side though I think? You wouldn't get in there again.

[daiking]

7 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Sounds like a plan. You could back the cavity with a bit of dpm wrapped 3/4" ply...

 

Won't though one brick's width / height (more so) still be a bit awkward to get in an mess around with the jb if it's like a foot back from the face?

 

I'd still go for Wago's in the box. How about this, 110x110x67mm:

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wago-abox-lever-connector-222-series-junction-box/9390G?

 

I've got one in the motor thinking about it. Comes with x5 3-way Wagos which is ideal; feed in, feed out and off to the light. The jb would have to lay on it's side though I think? You wouldn't get in there again.

 

You would need to ‘point’ the lights with mortar but I don’t consider them inaccessible . If they break/don’t work, just pull them out. Only 200mm or so deep, it’s not a cavity wall.

[Onoff]

Just having a play here with an old 80x80x50 box:

 

 

You'll easily get two swa glands and a flex/conduit gland in plus x3 Wagos.

 

If you used a similar Wiska box:

 

https://www.rselectricalsupplies.co.uk/wiska-308-combi-empty-pvc-enclosure-ip66-85x85x51mm-308emptyb_1734?

 

On the 308 box the swa glands with screw straight in without the locknut. If you get the optional earth bar that takes care of maintaining continuity of the swa:

 

 

You will need to replace one of the Wagos with a 5-way to take the fly lead from the earth bar.

 

You could.....buy an undrilled enclosure yourself. Drill x3 20mm holes. Put the swa banjos back to back (to maintain continuity) and fit an M6 brass nut and bolt with ring crimp for the fly lead...

 

https://m.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?isRefine=true&sid=miromst&isRefine=true&_pgn=1&_mwBanner=1

Edited April 2, 2018 by Onoff

[daiking]

17 hours ago, Onoff said:

Just having a play here with an old 80x80x50 box:

 

 

You'll easily get two swa glands and a flex/conduit gland in plus x3 Wagos.

 

If you used a similar Wiska box:

 

https://www.rselectricalsupplies.co.uk/wiska-308-combi-empty-pvc-enclosure-ip66-85x85x51mm-308emptyb_1734?

 

On the 308 box the swa glands with screw straight in without the locknut. If you get the optional earth bar that takes care of maintaining continuity of the swa:

 

 

You will need to replace one of the Wagos with a 5-way to take the fly lead from the earth bar.

 

You could.....buy an undrilled enclosure yourself. Drill x3 20mm holes. Put the swa banjos back to back (to maintain continuity) and fit an M6 brass nut and bolt with ring crimp for the fly lead...

 

https://m.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?isRefine=true&sid=miromst&isRefine=true&_pgn=1&_mwBanner=1

 

Thanks for your efforts it’s appreciated, shouldn’t you be finishing your bathroom? 

 

Im amazed I can’t find some guidance to how to do this online. I just want to know how to do the donkey work now with the cables so the hard bit can by done later by someone SQEP’d.

 

@ProDave a pukka domestic electrician is ignoring me, any advice? Just want to bury the cable so the lights can be connected later.

[daiking]

FWIW the little brass fittings on the lights have a M12 thread so the hole through the middle is a lot smaller.

[daiking]

And having looked at terminating swa it looks like it would be hard to do through a brick sized letter box, ergo that bit needs to be done early not later and posted through the back of the wall into the letterbox

[Nickfromwales]

33 minutes ago, daiking said:

@ProDave a pukka domestic electrician is ignoring me, any advice?

He's on hols mate

[daiking]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

He's on hols mate

 

I didn’t think he could afford hols.

[Nickfromwales]

Can any of us?

[Onoff]

You will have to have a maintenance free junction box seeing as you can't get easy access to it. A Wiska box, gel filled, as above with Wagos in satisfies this. One swa in and one out. One take off for a flex (H07 RNF or similar) to the light. Once that jb is in you won't really be able to take the lid off easily and get your hands in. I would take out a letter box size bit from the blocks at the rear and slip a board down as you said. This will create a deep  (front to back) but shallow  (height) cavity. You should be able to get a gland that will screw into the light and take the flex. The flex can be a bit long to enable you to easily haul the light fitting out and work on it.

 

Measure that gland properly if you can:

 

This is an M16:

 

 

I'm measuring the OD of the threads with the Vernier.

 

You can see here how the gland size is written on this one "M20x1.5":

 

 

You can get all sorts of adapters to say put a bigger gland too a smaller tapped hole.

 

As a for instance Goggle "m20 gland adapter" and go Images to see what I mean.

 

For my sins I get to work with all sorts of cabling and glands. If really unlucky I'll have to drill a steel plate and thread it to accept a gland. This for instance is an M25 tap:

 

 

As a complete aside most Metric bolts you buy will be coarse thread as standard. Electrical M20 and M25 threads are much finer pitch at 1.5mm. 

 

Your swa. Just because it's "armoured" doesn't mean it's bulletproof. You start slinging in assorted sharp hardcore & crap and it may cut the outer sheath. I'd clip to the back of the wall as low down as possible and cover with sand, sieved dirt etc. 

 

And take some pictures to show the electrician. He is supposed to be verifying the wiring system when he signs off which he shouldn't really do unless he's done it himself or is happy to sign off 3rd party works. Probably won't be best pleased you've taken the meat out of the job anyway.

 

Or wait for Dave!

 

Onoff OUT!

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Onoff

[daiking]

6 hours ago, Onoff said:

You will have to have a maintenance free junction box seeing as you can't get easy access to it. A Wiska box, gel filled, as above with Wagos in satisfies this. One swa in and one out. One take off for a flex (H07 RNF or similar) to the light. Once that jb is in you won't really be able to take the lid off easily and get your hands in. I would take out a letter box size bit from the blocks at the rear and slip a board down as you said. This will create a deep  (front to back) but shallow  (height) cavity. You should be able to get a gland that will screw into the light and take the flex. The flex can be a bit long to enable you to easily haul the light fitting out and work on it.

 

Measure that gland properly if you can:

 

This is an M16:

 

 

I'm measuring the OD of the threads with the Vernier.

 

You can see here how the gland size is written on this one "M20x1.5":

 

 

You can get all sorts of adapters to say put a bigger gland too a smaller tapped hole.

 

As a for instance Goggle "m20 gland adapter" and go Images to see what I mean.

 

For my sins I get to work with all sorts of cabling and glands. If really unlucky I'll have to drill a steel plate and thread it to accept a gland. This for instance is an M25 tap:

 

 

As a complete aside most Metric bolts you buy will be coarse thread as standard. Electrical M20 and M25 threads are much finer pitch at 1.5mm. 

 

Your swa. Just because it's "armoured" doesn't mean it's bulletproof. You start slinging in assorted sharp hardcore & crap and it may cut the outer sheath. I'd clip to the back of the wall as low down as possible and cover with sand, sieved dirt etc. 

 

And take some pictures to show the electrician. He is supposed to be verifying the wiring system when he signs off which he shouldn't really do unless he's done it himself or is happy to sign off 3rd party works. Probably won't be best pleased you've taken the meat out of the job anyway.

 

Or wait for Dave!

 

Onoff OUT!

 

 

 

I had realised that it’s not something that can be pulled through and left till later to terminate. Needs terminating now.

 

as I posted before, £100 of lights becomes a £500 job which makes the absolute fortune that wall cost me look reasonable. I’m close to ditching the whole lot again for some f**king 240v festoons plugged directly into the socket.

 

Light 17

jb 5

2x swa 20s glands  5

3 x wagos plus flex plus flex gland and Earth bits 5

 

6 lights = 192

 

switch + fuse + gland(s) 20

cable 35

cleat and other bits 15

 

262

 

labour - min 13 swa to terminate plus 6 flex plus boxes fitting and wiring. 

 

That’s 200 a day + vat round here.

 

that all buys a lot of f**king candles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

Champagne tastes & Babycham budget?

 

Simply put it is a "£500" job...to do it properly.

 

Learn to lay bricks?

[daiking]

13 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Champagne tastes & Babycham budget?

 

Simply put it is a "£500" job...to do it properly.

 

Learn to lay bricks?

 

Bricklaying is too much like hard work, it’s M&E that’s money for old rope .

 

I hardly think 6 lights is champagne taste, it’s not exactly a Jean Michael  Jarre installation. There’s clearly room for a designed solution here, maybe a light fitting that can more easily accommodate the swa termination given the bend radius. Ditto, I don’t think this needs an IP68 solution, the lights are only 65 themselves and these boxes will not be buried, just housed in a not well sealed cavity. 

 

is there not an underground mechanical protection conduit option available to use a more flexible cable? Allowing slightly easier termination and some slack due to flexibility?

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by daiking

[Onoff]

Money no object?

 

https://www.edwardes.co.uk/en/categories/branch-joint-kits

 

[daiking]

Only managed to get one c*** to come round who’s f***** off and not given a price. Not only that but the unprofessional prick took one the lights apart, phoned me up at work to moan they were small and then had lost one of the face plate screws after leaving it all in bits. C***. They’re all c****.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, daiking said:

Only managed to get one c*** to come round who’s f***** off and not given a price. Not only that but the unprofessional prick took one the lights apart, phoned me up at work to moan they were small and then had lost one of the face plate screws after leaving it all in bits. C***. They’re all c****.

Good to hear your not bitter