What does the architect do?

[anna]

Hello.

I was reading at the old forum about architects, what they do, but still not sure.

I already have planning permission granted for 2 identical houses.

What do I need from an architect now? 

Working drawings, structural calculations, drainage map? What else?

 

I have a quote from an architect for £1800.00 including structural work. Plus £600.00 for drainage. Is it a fair price?(still not sure what's included)

[Crofter]

Welcome to buildhub.

Strictly speaking, you don't need an architect at all. In fact if you are happy with the house design (I'm assuming you have full planning, not merely outline?) and just need someone to help submit the building warrant, you have a few choices- architectural technician, engineer, or a package builder. Or you can do it yourself but it is quite involved.

[ProDave]

That sounds like a fair price. When I last tried an "architect" I was getting silly prices based on about 7% of their estimate of the build cost. So I didn't even go down that route this time. I used an architectural technician to detail the design.

[joe90]

I refer to architects as " artistic house designers" , like most people on this forum I don't need an architect I just need an architect technician to get past building regs and do CAD drawings for the builder. 

[anna]

This is all I have. Please find attached.

I wouldn't like to do it myself yet. Maybe next time.

Just wanted to check if the price is ok. 

[anna]

Thank you everybody.

What about structural engineer? I read that he has to do his bit too

[Jeremy Harris]

Essentially all you need are a set of plans to gain planning permission (which are the very simple ones like you've shown in the plan above) plus a way of showing to building control that the structure is going to be built in accordance with building regs, plus enough detail for your builder to work from.

Compliance with building regs can follow two routes.  Either you submit full drawings to show compliance before you start, and get those approved (and those drawings and detail has to be enough to show compliance with the structural regs in Part A, as well as all the other regs that govern things like the width and position of doors, the entrance floor WC, etc), or you get approval as you build, with the inspector ticking things off as you go.  The latter route isn't that wise for two builds, as the inspector could well require a layout change, for example to comply with Part M access needs, and if you've already got walls and doors in when he picks this up you could be faced with a lot of work to correct things.

You can get an architectural technician to produce building regs drawings and do the submission, and like an architect he may need the help of a structural engineer, or may not, it depends on the design.  Most houses for the general market probably never need an SE, as they use standard details that are deemed to be compliant with Part A (the structural bit of the building regs).

Some house builders (mainly timber frame companies) provide a full structural design as a part of the package, and this will usually satisfy building control.  This is what we did, I did all the drawings for planning and building control, the frame supplier provided a signed off foundation and frame that building control were happy with.  The frame supplier used their own SE to sign everything off at the design stage.

[TerryE]

11 hours ago, anna said:l

I have a quote from an architect for £1800.00 including structural work. Plus £600.00 for drainage. Is it a fair price?(still not sure what's included)

IIMO, you have to be very careful to read the T&Cs attached to the architects proposal. Who owns the IPR and the copyright on the work that you have commissioned? The architects practice will often retain this and put strict constraints on how you can use their work.  You might find that you can only use this work if you pay them to oversee the subsequent phases of the build. A total fee of 7% of the value of the project isn't uncommon, and this also means that you need to get the build independently valued, so you need to add in the QS fees that you hadn't budgeted.

£2,400 sounds to good to be true, and the usual reason that things sound to be true is ...

[worldwidewebs]

At £1800 for an architect, you aren't going to get much "architecting" done. Leaving aside what has been offered, what is it that you want? Everyone has a different view about what they need and the value that an architect (or architectural technologist) brings to the party. At the most basic level you could sketch something up that you like the look of and then just get someone to draw it up - that doesn't need an architect and if it works for you then it shouldn't cost much at all. However, at the other end of the scale if you want significant design input with the aim of creating something with more "wow" then don't underestimate the value of a good architect - and don't underestimate how much will cost either.

With our architectural technologist he charges a fixed fee up to planning permission submission - that includes iterative concept designs and detailed designs. You could stop there (many do), but if you want more detailed design done (including building regs drawings) then there is another fixed fee for that too. There are also other elements that he can help with, for a cost. Only you can decide if the money is worth it. For us it is - there is no way I would have come up with anything anywhere near as good as what he did. His not-insignificant costs though are more than outweighed (5-10 fold) by the expected increase in value once it's finished. 

[joe90]

Just had a quote from my architect to do the drawings for the building regulations ( no design involved, just plans and spec to pass building regs) of £1750 plus sap calcs and S.E. calcs if required.

[Ferdinand]

I think one challenging thing about hiring architects is that they can do so much ... and you then have to decide what you want them to do, and communicate ti, and make sure you limit them to it.

The relationship, the cost, and the contract are all equally important.

Make sure that you will not have to pay extra charges to have copyright in the plans for your house assigned to you, or for others to use them; that the basis for recalculating fees should extra work be necessary is acceptable; and whether you want fees calculated on the estimated cost or actual cost (*).

There be dragons in the standard RIBA contracts.

(*) eg Going 20% over budget due to something which will involve no extra architecting could suddenly add 20% to your fees.

What you need is your wits about you, enough time to really sweat the detail, willingness to ask awkward questions and stand your ground, and possibly advice from a property person in the "hoary old git (f or m)" category.

Ferdinand

Edited June 25, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

Ferdinand's warning is apt.  Two weeks ago I had a visit from a (rather wealthy) chap who is having a house built a few miles from us.  He came to look at our build around 2 years ago, when he and his wife were in the early planning stages.  Unlike a lot of us here, he has been very hands-off with his build and had a standard contract with his architect to design and build his house. 

What has now happened is almost exactly as Ferdinand has said.  The build costs have risen by a little over 20%, primarily because the architect's original cost estimates were hopelessly optimistic - I've been through them as a favour for the chap.  The increase in cost has been reluctantly accepted, but he has now received the bill from the architect, and because his fees are based on a percentage of the total cost (in this case 12%) this bill is over 20% higher than expected.

It has always struck me as wholly unreasonable for fees to be a percentage of the total cost, especially when letting a design and build contract, as it removes any incentive for the architect/project manager to reduce cost.  The higher the build cost the greater their fee.

It is common in commercial design and build contracts to use a "target cost incentive fee" contract and there is no good reason why this approach should not be used for a domestic design and build.  In essence, you set a target build cost, based on a full QS breakdown.  You then contract to have the house designed and built within that cost, with the incentive being that a percentage of any cost saving will be shared between the two parties to the contract.  For example, you have a firm target price set of £200k.  The architect/project manager manages resources wisely and gets the best prices for materials and comes in at £190k.  There's a 50/50 incentive fee split, so you save half of this £10k saving, and pay out £195k for the work and the architect/project manager makes £5k extra profit (the difference between the £190k cost and the £195k you pay.

[joe90]

I totally agree with Jeremy above, it's called a bonus ( that you have to work for, not just expect !) it's the same with estate agents, fixed fee should apply, ( with shared bonus for any money ABOVE the asking price) .

[anna]

Hi. I'm sorry. I forgot to reply earlier.

Thank you very much for all the comments.Much appreciated. 

I have got another 2 quotes:

1 from a guy who designed the initial plans for planning permission (we bought the land with PP already) - He wants £900.00 for building regulations drawings including submission to council. He said we won't need any structural calculations. He seems to me very reliable, He is a local architect (not sure is he holds a proper title).

The other quote is from a local guy too. £850,00 for building regulations. He said we may need structural calculations but it's about £60.00 extra , and not sure if we need them.

Just to make clear. We're not building our dream homes. We want to, but not here,not now :-) These ones are strictly to be built and sold (we want to learn how it works and then think about OUR house). 

I think we will go with the one who made original designs. (He answer the phone, he replies to emails- t's important for me too).

[Jeremy Harris]

Just be very clear what you're getting for your money, as often things can be very fuzzy when it comes to what is and is not included from any plans-drawing provider, be they and architect or architectural technician, or even some unqualified plans drawing service.

Building regs approval may well be something you can do yourself, depending on the construction method you're using and any potentially complicated parts of the structure.  I did our own building regs approval, the documents I submitted are all here:

There are fees for building regs that aren't included in the quotes you've received, I believe, so these need to be taken into account as well.

[Ferdinand]

Quote

Just to make clear. We're not building our dream homes. We want to, but not here,not now :-) These ones are strictly to be built and sold (we want to learn how it works and then think about OUR house). 

That looks like a good plan.

Do you have detailed or outline?

Depending where you are, and considering the current uncertainty, and depending on the expiry date of your PP, and whether it is detailed or outline, you may want to get Full PP then lock it in by starting development, then take a look around as market conditions may have changed significantly in 3 or 6 month's time.

Having given that warning, those look like the type of houses which will rent out economically in most places.

Jeremy's incentive scheme looks good, but since an architect could expect 10% or so (that's a guess) I would incentivise them with 20-30% of the saving not 50%.

Ferdinand