Preparing to Screed - What to consider....

[Mulberry View]

I have a Beam & Block floor and am hoping to screed soon. I have 230mm of insulation going in, it's all here on site. The Beam & Block is grouted and fully dry. The grout has "cracked" in places, but just superficially. There are gaps in places at the perimeter to the subfloor. Should these be sealed?

 

I have 4 soil pipes and a blue 110mm water pipe duct coming up through the floor blocks. Do these need to be specially sealed in any way at Beam & Block level? The soil pipes are plain ended and currently plenty long enough, should I solvent weld socket couplers in the insulation level to remove the joint that faces the wrong way or just live with the plain pipe ends and worry about connections later above the floor level?

 

Do I need to consider air-tightness in the way to DPM is installed and terminated onto the Nudura walls? PIR upstand yes or no?

 

The screed is likely to be Cemfloor at a thickness of 50-55mm, containing UFH (yet to be installed of course).

 

Any tips or words of advice to limit my inevitable procrastination would be massively appreciated.

[Russell griffiths]

Get some neoprene insulation material 100mm wide, wrap this around the soil pipes at screed level. 
2 wraps around will leave you with a void around the pipe so when the screed is in and dry you will either have a bit of wiggle room on the pipe, or you have the ability to pull the neoprene out which leaves a void that a pipe coupling will fit into. 
as for sealing them you will be putting your dpm on top of the beam n block so you seal the pipes to that. 

[JohnMo]

I made insulation corners a bit bigger than the tape lines to enable lots to wriggle room. Once screed had cured, broke out the insulation. Did what I needed when bathroom etc was being done, then back filled with cement mix.

[Nickfromwales]

I just use a few ‘turns’ of squirty foam to give said wiggle room, but as above, more importantly, gives you the option to slide a fitting (with its knuckle) after removing some of the foam. 
 

 

I am in the process of fine tuning the 1st fix for the GF cloak WC that this particular pipe services. There’s a full 20mm of ‘wiggle’ there, allowing me to get the fully-back-to-wall close coupled WC in to perfection. Cost, £5. 

[Nickfromwales]

12 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

The soil pipes are plain ended and currently plenty long enough, should I solvent weld socket couplers in the insulation level to remove the joint that faces the wrong way

Nope. And there isn’t a ‘wrong way’ here btw .

 

Most UG pipe is sold ‘socket-less’ meaning it is just straight pipe (plain ended as you call it) which is directionless and completely normal.

 

FYI a ‘socket’ is what the plain pipe goes into for each joint, so you get single or double ‘socket’ bends, one male and one female end, or both ends female.

 

We’ll learn you good, boy!!  

[Nickfromwales]

12 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

Do I need to consider air-tightness in the way to DPM is installed and terminated onto the Nudura walls? PIR upstand yes or no?

I chatted this through with one previous client in Gravenhill, as they only allow a B&B floor there. We decided it best to buy a few (very) large tubs of black jack (liquid DPM) and use that to make the B&B airtight too; this was brushed up the upstands too. 
 

Here’s a pic of it, please ignore it being wrecked temporarily to install the WC pipe where it actually needed to be, lol. Back in the trenches again   

 

 

This was done vs a sheet DPM, and imho this is night & day better. Zero tape / dodgy internal and external corners to fold. 👍👍👌

 

Oh, and yes, I did have to suspend that WC frame in place, FFL calculated and datums a plenty, stud wall created virtually in mid air, before the polished concrete went down…….

 

I had about 4mm of tolerance to play with.

 

All was A1 of course as OCD wins every time lol. 

[Mulberry View]

16 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Get some neoprene insulation material 100mm wide, wrap this around the soil pipes at screed level. 
2 wraps around will leave you with a void around the pipe so when the screed is in and dry you will either have a bit of wiggle room on the pipe, or you have the ability to pull the neoprene out which leaves a void that a pipe coupling will fit into. 
as for sealing them you will be putting your dpm on top of the beam n block so you seal the pipes to that. 

 

@Russell griffiths Did you seal the DPM to the Nudura at the upstand? Did you run a 25mm strip of PIR around the edges? How about the normal foam perimeter insulation that usually goes with UFH kits?

[Russell griffiths]

No need for an insulation upstands if using eps icf blocks, you already have an insulated upstand it’s what the walls are built of. 
ditch the insulation upstand and fold the dpm up the walls, use the foam expansion strip around the screed area, once screed is in trim the foam back and use some cheap sealant to seal between the screed and eps. 
 

Edited July 10 by Russell griffiths

[Mulberry View]

28 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

No need for an insulation upstands if using eps icf blocks, you already have an insulated upstand it’s what the walls are built of. 
ditch the insulation upstand and fold the dpm up the walls, use the foam expansion strip around the screed area, once screed is in trim the foam back and use some cheap sealant to seal between the screed and eps. 
 

 

Thanks for that @Russell griffiths

 

In terms of the UFH, the screed company has quoted for a competitively priced system, using Pert-Al-Pert pipe. What sort of bend radius can the pipes tolerate? I need to run the pipes through level changes, so the pipes will essentially need to run vertically up a surface, then turn 90° into the floorspace again. I thought about bevelling the edge of the PIR  to keep the pipes deep enough in the screed in this transition.

[Russell griffiths]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

 

Thanks for that @Russell griffiths

 

In terms of the UFH, the screed company has quoted for a competitively priced system, using Pert-Al-Pert pipe. What sort of bend radius can the pipes tolerate? I need to run the pipes through level changes, so the pipes will essentially need to run vertically up a surface, then turn 90° into the floorspace again. I thought about bevelling the edge of the PIR  to keep the pipes deep enough in the screed in this transition.

That’s a @Nickfromwales question 

I personally probably wouldn’t do that. 
what happens to any movement at that junction. Are there going to be steps built out that the bends can be hidden in, what’s going on the upstands. 
needs a side view drawing and a scrap bit of pipe to check the bend radius. 

[Mulberry View]

15 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

That’s a @Nickfromwales question 

I personally probably wouldn’t do that. 
what happens to any movement at that junction. Are there going to be steps built out that the bends can be hidden in, what’s going on the upstands. 
needs a side view drawing and a scrap bit of pipe to check the bend radius. 

 

I'll sketch it or take some photos. But the upstands can be battened and boarded to allow some pipe slack within. 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

Pert-Al-Pert

16mm is supposed to have a min bend radius of 80mm. But getting that without kinks not easy. I would bank on 150mm being nearer min radius.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

5 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

I thought about bevelling the edge of the PIR  to keep the pipes deep enough in the screed in this transition.

I think this sounds sensible & practical. I did my UFH (16mm PERT-AL-PERT) install. It was easy enough, but the companies that produce the drawings don’t consider bend radius at all. I knocked up a simple bending tool, though I quickly got the hand of doing it and didn’t use the tool - though my test helped give me confidence in handling and bending it. 
 

Not sure if this video will upload - here’s my DIY tool and demo of bending the pipe (showing how much / little the cross section is affected). 

 

 

[Mulberry View]

2 hours ago, Great_scot_selfbuild said:

I think this sounds sensible & practical. I did my UFH (16mm PERT-AL-PERT) install. It was easy enough, but the companies that produce the drawings don’t consider bend radius at all. I knocked up a simple bending tool, though I quickly got the hand of doing it and didn’t use the tool - though my test helped give me confidence in handling and bending it. 
 

Not sure if this video will upload - here’s my DIY tool and demo of bending the pipe (showing how much / little the cross section is affected). 

IMG_2232.mov 599.58 MB · 2 downloads  

 

 

I can also run the bend in an offset position, as in not perpendicular to the direction it's heading, that way most of the bend radius can be lost in the upstand. Hard to explain, I know what I mean LOL! I'm just downloading that vid down my copper telecoms line, be right back!

[Russell griffiths]

Are you not supposed to do a lightbulb bend so you get a larger radius bend so no kinks but it still fits 150 pipe centres. 

[Nickfromwales]

For the last split-level slab I did we simply put 2 manifolds in, one on each level, and worked well.

 

I have done one very big GF UFH job and put the GF manifold on the FF landing, in the cupboard under the stairs to the 2F, and this worked without issue. So, I guess as long as the manifold is always at the highest point, to collect and get rid of air/gas, then you should be fine to have the manifold on the higher level and feed down and back up from there.

 

For laying of UFH, just forget the old ways and lay the pipes inverted and then you are 95% just turning 90 degrees instead of 180. Simples!!!!

 

[Mulberry View]

These are the steps I'm building. This is the arrangement from the Entrance Hall to the Kitchen/Dining Room. It will be fully insulated and hopefully shuttered and screeded all in one with the main floor areas. I would like to pass the pipe through each step.

 

 

This is the finished look...

 

 

From the Kitchen/Dining Room to the Living Room I have this arrangement...

 

 

That's going to be a 150mm high plinth step. There will be a second uninsulated (hardwood) step, then the living room floor. The Nudura face can be battened and boarded over to give a void for the UFH pipes, some pipe slack can be accommodated there.

 

This is the approximate look desired there...

 

 

Any feedback on running the pipes through these transitions is greatly appreciated. The steps are pretty hefty and solid.

 

[JohnMo]

I would divert around the steps completely - they do not need UFH. So first image with stairs going up to next floor, take pipes along and down wall then transition to floor, behind the stairs.

 

Other bit again do the transition via the wall not the steps.

Edited 8 hours ago by JohnMo

[Mulberry View]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

I would divert around the steps completely - they do not need UFH. So first image with stairs going up to next floor, take pipes along and down wall then transition to floor, behind the stairs.

 

Other bit again do the transition via the wall not the steps.

 

My main worry is that the steps would feel colder than the adjacent floors. You don't think they will?

[JohnMo]

51 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

 

My main worry is that the steps would feel colder than the adjacent floors. You don't think they will?

On a new build - I doubt it. Our max flow temp is only 28 at -9. So well below body temp, actual floor temp a few degs above room temperature so even cooler. Even without the previous how long will you be spending walking on the steps. If well insulated they will be close to room temperature?

[Russell griffiths]

2 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

 

My main worry is that the steps would feel colder than the adjacent floors. You don't think they will?

Who cares, you’re not going to stand on them contemplating. 
you run up and down going from a to b.