Grand designs: off site construction

[Post and beam]

I watched Kevin yesterday exploring the off site construction of a 'modular' single story house.

Am i missing something? all that appeared to happen is the house was built in sections in a warehouse, it took just as long as it would have done on site as far as i could tell. Other than, of course, not at the potential  mercy of the weather. Is this enough to warrant the process.

The customer was impressed that once the house was delivered it went together quickly. But it still took quite a while, just not within the customers visibility.

Only one house was able to be built at a time in the warehouse. Surely this is not a sustainable model from a financial point of view.

 

I imagine true off site modular houses would be a 'call off' from a parts warehouse of pre made  for example...

3 x 4 metre wall panels with window

2 x 2 metre panels with door.

n X 4 metre wall panels no window.  etc. You get the idea.

 

Much like a SIPS design might be now but scaled for volume. Any design of house you want but from the standard parts list.

Appreciate not everyone likes SIPS but i hope the description still holds.

 

I believe the actual assembly should still be on site.

 

[ProDave]

It is supposed to make the build more precise and more controlled.

 

But the price.  £800K for the build, not including the plot (another £650K)  Eye watering figures for me, both of them.  And I don't recall them saying how many square metres.  Also no details of insulation levels, heating system etc.

 

And in spite of it being built in a factory, it appears the plumbers got no thought in the design and they still had to work out pipe routes and drill all the holes just as they would in any other build.

[SteamyTea]

I had a tour around Frame's Redruth factory. The production manager told me about the great pains they go to ensure the quality and fit is right.

Then electricians and plumbers come along and drill holes wherever they feel like it, totally ignoring all instructions and drawings.

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Then electricians and plumbers come along and drill holes wherever they feel like it, totally ignoring all instructions and drawings.

I briefly did some work for a passive house building company here.  I was not allowed to drill a hole through the external wall of the building (i.e. through the air tight layer)  If I needed a hole, I had to discuss it, and one of the joiners would drill the hole in the agreed place (not always where I wanted it) and they would then seal the cable penetration afterwards.

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Post and beam said:

Am i missing something? all that appeared to happen is the house was built in sections in a warehouse

Perhaps. I went to a modular factory and was surprised to see it was just an old shed, with people slicing osb and cutting battens, and another nailing it on a bench. 

The difference though was quite simply in taking away all manual measuring. A computerised machine drew cutting lines and part numbers, straight from a schedule. So there was minimal waste, and much reduced skill level.

Also, they took in fresh timber, in wrapped 6m3 or 4.8m3  bundles,  straight from the docks and it never got wet so the quality was more certain.

[Spinny]

I suspect that someone like Elon Musk could be capable of changing house building. Would seem to require an awful lot of careful engineering work to define a modular construction system and automate the production of modules at scale. Compare a car production line or modern automated manufacturing plant to what you describe and there is a vast gulf. It would take a massive investment, and while Americans were willing to provide Musk, Bezos etc with huge unlimited funding and a licence to make losses for a decade or more to get electric cars, and Amazon, I doubt such a tech investment mania could ever be created for automating housebuilding. 

 

I think there are many ridiculous things about housebuilding including the complete absence of service void planning. If you see what goes on today in say aerospace engineering design, it makes domestic architectural design look like it is in the dark ages. The only thing which I guess comes close is in mass building where companies throw up steel frame and modular concrete panel multi-storey blocks of student accomodation or tiny flats for rent. It is a strange world where people knocked down 60's tower blocks that became slums, but now build modern equivalents that will also likely become slums down the line, and where houses built 100 years ago give people more space to live than they do today.

[saveasteading]

8 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Would seem to require an awful lot of careful engineering work to define a modular construction system and automate the production of modules at scale.

 

It has been happening for decades. I worked with steel buildings which were made to order and slotted together beautifully on site. They were not even modular, but to any dimensions but there were parameters.

Most of it was automatic manufacture, with humans just doing the odd tack weld to get it started.

 

It was also possible to make a frame on site and lift it into place  By chance I have a photo in front of me from some box sorting.

THe odd thing was that the steel erectors didn't want to know about this. partly habit, partly macho, but the time difference was very small.

 

The big difference is that you then took this hitech kit to a muddy site and worked at 8m in the air in all weathers.  

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, Spinny said:

I suspect that someone like Elon Musk could be capable of changing house building. Would seem to require an awful lot of careful engineering work to define a modular construction system and automate the production of modules at scale. Compare a car production line or modern automated manufacturing plant to what you describe and there is a vast gulf. It would take a massive investment, and while Americans were willing to provide Musk, Bezos etc with huge unlimited funding and a licence to make losses for a decade or more to get electric cars, and Amazon, I doubt such a tech investment mania could ever be created for automating housebuilding. 

 

I think there are many ridiculous things about housebuilding including the complete absence of service void planning. If you see what goes on today in say aerospace engineering design, it makes domestic architectural design look like it is in the dark ages. The only thing which I guess comes close is in mass building where companies throw up steel frame and modular concrete panel multi-storey blocks of student accomodation or tiny flats for rent. It is a strange world where people knocked down 60's tower blocks that became slums, but now build modern equivalents that will also likely become slums down the line, and where houses built 100 years ago give people more space to live than they do today.

 

Agreed, the building of houses is in the dark ages, and, essentially hasnt really changed. Reasons could be discussed forever, but it is what it is.

 

I agree, if someone invested serious cash into a properly big plant to make houses, they would clean up.

 

But for some reason, the building game has completely avoided the normal competative behaviour that drives innovation in other industries. Like automotive, as you say. The doors in my house only become truly weathertight if i lock them. If i just close them, they dont cut out all draughts, like every UPVC door ive ever seen. Yet, on my car, when i close the door, its closed. No water, no drafts. Completely perfect. To use just one example.

 

Id buy a factory built house over assembled on site any day. Though it sounds like current manufactured houses are a bit of a cottage industry if this thread is anything to go by.

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Spinny said:

I suspect that someone like Elon Musk could be capable of changing house building.

 

https://downsizegeek.com/elon-musks-6789-tiny-house-finally-hit-the-market/

 

Don't think it has made any difference.

 

 

[saveasteading]

₇

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

the building of houses is in the dark ages

That's mostly down to the choices made on cost and quality. Eg the door mentioned. They are avaliable solid and completely water and draught-proof but these are expensive.

The choices are mostly by the buyers, of what they regard as acceptable. Also by developers, but they make what will sell.

 

Then of course " builders".. anyone can call themselves a builder. There are very good ones but they cost more, so it's our choice.

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

₇

That's mostly down to the choices made on cost and quality. Eg the door mentioned. They are avaliable solid and completely water and draught-proof but these are expensive.

The choices are mostly by the buyers, of what they regard as acceptable. Also by developers, but they make what will sell.

 

Then of course " builders".. anyone can call themselves a builder. There are very good ones but they cost more, so it's our choice.

 

Hmmm. Ive never seen any door on a house that doesnt require "locking" if i can call it that, raising the handle up or other similar function to compress the seals tomake it fully weather tight. Maybe they do exist, ill take your word for it.

 

There is no car available to buy new that doesnt have properly working door seals. No matter how cheap.

 

 

[Post and beam]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

But for some reason, the building game has completely avoided the normal competative behaviour that drives innovation in other industries

One obvious reason is the huge imbalance between supply & demand i think.

As long as the amount of people wanting a house outstrip the supply of them then the price/quality thing will suffer.

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, Post and beam said:

One obvious reason is the huge imbalance between supply & demand i think.

As long as the amount of people wanting a house outstrip the supply of them then the price/quality thing will suffer.

If all the houses get sold, then they are too cheap.

 

Not that often I agree with @Roger440, but he is spot on when comparing house and car quality.  It is why kit car manufacturers don't make very good products.  The components parts may reach a set quality level, just as they do in the housing industry. Then then get put together by morons.

 

It is often quoted that you cannot have speed, quality and cheapness.

You can, it is what production engineering does every hour of every day.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

It is often quoted that you cannot have speed, quality and cheapness.

It is often said "choose 2 because you can't have all 3". But that is simplistic.

In reality it is a formula of the 3 to get the product you want.

 

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

If all the houses get sold, then they are too cheap

Round my way the mass developers are complaining that aren't making money, and in parallel applying for more permissions. The new products are selling more slowly, and the 2 to 3 year old identical units are a lot cheaper.

They might be nearing the right cost.

[sgt_woulds]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

  It is why kit car manufacturers don't make very good products.  The components parts may reach a set quality level, just as they do in the housing industry. Then then get put together by morons.

 

 

 

 

SVA sorted that.  UK single vehicle type approval is now more stringent in some areas than full type approval. 

This was (and still is) a major complaint against SVA; when it was introduced back in the 90's someone tried putting a brand new Ford Mondeo through SVA and it failed on multiple counts. 

 

SVA killed the UK kit car scene that was worth millions in the 90's.

 

Perhaps we should introduce something similar to kill off all the big house builders...

 

 

 

 

 

[sgt_woulds]

15 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

It is often said "choose 2 because you can't have all 3". But that is simplistic.

In reality it is a formula of the 3 to get the product you want.

 

Round my way the mass developers are complaining that aren't making money, and in parallel applying for more permissions. The new products are selling more slowly, and the 2 to 3 year old identical units are a lot cheaper.

They might be nearing the right cost.

 

 

Homes should never have become investment commodities.  All new houses are currently overpriced due to the need to keep the fat cats in candy.

 

There has never been a truly independant review of the UK housebuilding industry, and even when the big housebuilders are caught out for fixing prices they are let off with a slap on the wrist:  Seven Housebuilders agreed to pay £100 Million to Settle Cartel Probe – Antitrust Intelligence

 

£100 Million is peanuts compared to the proffits they have made, and who will build the 'affordable housing' that they have 'agreed' to pay for?  The ultimate circular economy!

 

If the government really wanted to sort this out they would mandate for thousands of prefabs just as they did in the 50's.