Types of central heating pipework

[SilverShadow]

Hi there,

 

We're looking to replace our CH system from the Jurassic era. This will involve installing a new combi boiler (to replace old gravity fed boiler) & 8 double radiators (replacing the old single panel ones). As the system is so old (i'd guess >30yrs at least, probably 40+) we imagine it'll need a whole new pipework system (especially as the combi will be in a different location), so plan to replace the old pipes

 

One plumber mentioned using MLCP - has anyone any experience of this type of pipework? While it's cheaper & more flexible, i wasn't sure if anyone had concerns over durability and if the connection joints degraded over time with systems like a combi?

 

We'll probably end up with copper pipes & soldered joints, but always worth asking around before making a choice - Pros & cons are always worth thinking about up front!  

 

 

Thanks for your time & thoughts

Shadow

[JohnMo]

Double post?

[SilverShadow]

Indeed - the last one i mistakenly put in the wrong thread, so opened this one here

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Thought they were old hat now as well!

 

Not a fan, it's not something you can easily modify without the correct tooling. If flexible pipes just go Hep2O, spares available on Sunday morning from Screwfix etc.

 

Combi isn't high pressure, the heating system will be set at around 1 bar.

 

The correct way to do the heating system 

 

Size radiators for room heat loss. Not a finger in the air.

 

Design for as low a flow temp as practical - make heat pump ready. Will be cheaper in the future and every heating day with gas. Aim for max flow temp of 35 degs.

 

Would do copper and press fit or push fit or Hep2O.

 

Choose your boiler based on modulation. Combi boiler is likely to rated at 30kW+, the average house in the UK needs around 6kW of heating on the coldest day. At 7 degs they need half of that. So a boiler that modulates down to 10kW will live a life of excessive cycling, leading to poor installed life and excessive heating costs.

 

So you need room by room heat loss, this will give you your total heat loss, now you want a boiler that modulates to at least half of that.

 

Running your heating - the normal (Jurassic mode) is on off time schedule. This isn't the most efficient, weather compensation or room compensation is more efficient, more comfortable and room temps can be cooler and way more comfortable.

 

Boiler choice is key.

 

Radiators - flow balance is key, they need to heat up at the same rate, normal way is lockshields and to cover a job badly done is a TRV to shut off the radiator then on then off. The better alternative (goes hand in hand with heat loss calculation) are these

https://pirateheatingsupplies.com/product/frv-flow-regulating-valves/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22603472091&gbraid=0AAAAA_uQOsI4YNapY2Wj7rOPA1rRFVJSP&gclid=CjwKCAiA1obMBhAbEiwAsUBbIj-uN1P_BLT9iUQTLU-V8ZHZb3orWmRQPPXZlbzEVr58-MFTt1xrsRoCeBIQAvD_BwE

 

Lets the installer calculate and see actual flow rate.

 

Maybe a bigger reply than you wanted

From the other thread before it closes

[SimonD]

2 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

One plumber mentioned using MLCP - has anyone any experience of this type of pipework?

 

Yep, I have 100s of meters of the stuff in my store and it's very good. If I'm doing large installation work, MLCP and the fittings are what I pick up in preference of both push-fit plastic and copper. 

 

However, if I'm having to run new CH pipework through existing floors and joists, plastic layflat push-fit pipe is my choice as it's easier to work in these kinds of situations than MLCP. But in other situations it's not as good because it expands much more at high temperatures and the clipping distances are silly short - like 300mm on the horizontal - and it doesn't self support, so it sags. With MLCP clipping distances are over 1m and it has inherent stiffness and memory so when you bend it, it stays bent. Plastic doesn't stay bent but has a very annoying memory (even the layflat PB type)

 

The big disadvantage with MLCP is that you typically need an expensive press-fit tool along with expensive jaws for each size of pipe you use. But you can now get manual press tools that are a lot cheaper and some manufacturers now have compression fittings available - I've even seen a German manufacturer with a push-fit fitting for MLCP but no sign of it over here.

 

With MLCP you can also get pre-insulated pipes which save time and effort where you need insulated runs for the installation.

 

Your other advantage with both plastic and mlcp is that you can run continuous lengths and minimise joints throughout the installation.

 

Copper is very expensive now,  requires lots of joints, and if you have runs in existing floors, it's just a pain. Even if it is pretty when first installed and polished, this tarnishes over time. 

 

Overall, with the brands I use, MLCP actually comes in at better value than plastic, believe it or not, and it has slightly reduced installation time overall even in retrofit jobs. What's also nice about MLCP is that you can dry fit all your joints without fixing them and then when you're ready go through it all with the press tool. Another small thing, that can sometimes be really important is that the sealing of MLCP is on the inside of the pipe. On plastic, it's on the outside, so you have to be careful you haven't damaged the surface of the pipe. With MLCP this isn't a problem.

 

Since I've used MLCP I haven't had a single leak on an installation. That's more than I can say for copper and solder! And there's no hot works or stinky soldering!!!

[SilverShadow]

Cheers, Simon - very sound advice! 😁 

 

I'd not heard of it before, but this plumber swears by it. He's invested in the tooling - which means he has the kit & know how. Although probably means he'd push this as his preferred option regardless 

 

I was concerned about the joints - I've heard push fit on plastic pipew can give over time & leak. I presume with these, having them sealed on the inside is preferable to anything push fit & will be sturdy enough

 

From what I gather, this has been used on the continent for a while, and also on commercial heating. So (to me) it definitely sounds robust enough. Being slightly insulated probably also helps with any freezing problems too 👍

 

My only concern is: if in the highly unlikely scenario of needing to maintain it later (eg: some leak), it would limit options on emergency plumbers

 

We'd be looking to extend the heating layout later (after house extension), which I presume would be easy enough to do with this set up

 

A good many plumbers shun it, and I'm trying to figure out what (if any) disadvantages there are. Or if they're just old skool & stick to what they know

 

Plenty of useful info to consider tho mate 👍

[SilverShadow]

Ps, regarding your last paragraph: may I ask how long (or how many) systems you've used it on

 

Just helps give me a perspective of reliability 😉

[Iceverge]

It's been the standard go-to in Ireland with a while for new builds I've seen. 

 

You can buy screw fittings if you don't have the compression tool. 

 

It's a very robust system. HEP2O is an easier system to install in my experience and has less restrictive fittings for flow and plenty good enough for houses. I would be happy with a multilayer system if done well though. Much more so than copper or cheaper push fit. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Iceverge

[Nickfromwales]

13 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

Ps, regarding your last paragraph: may I ask how long (or how many) systems you've used it on

 

Just helps give me a perspective of reliability 😉

For domestic works I’ve used hep2o (never John Guest Speedfit as the fittings need clips to stop them undoing themselves ) and I’ve never had an issue other than one or two duff fittings (over 10 years) which just leaked the second I filled up. 5 min swap out, back to business. 
 

I've installed tens of thousands of metres of this stuff and don’t use anything else. Clipping isn’t bad, but needs to be more frequent than copper or MLCP, defo not 300mm. 
 

MLCP (pert-al) for UFH for every install.

 

MLCP has quite restrictive inner bore sizes, from what I’ve seen ( @SimonD ? ), so does JG Speedfit, but Hep2o inserts are thin stainless sleeves which hardly impact on the bore / flow at all.

 

The Hep2o fittings are ‘push and forget’ and these are equally bombproof afaic.

 

I won’t be converting to press-fit copper any time soon. Just a total

pita if you’ve not got a fitting spot on first time, loads to cut out if you feck up in a tight space like a plant room, and it’s very difficult to get the machine into tight spaces (where I can reach with solder and my lamp). 

[SimonD]

20 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

defo not 300mm. 

10mm, 15mm 20°C 60°C 80°C
Easy-Lay PB
- Horizontal 500mm 400mm 300mm
- Vertical 800mm 600mm 500mm

 

Has to be done if you're installing a gas boiler on PDHW.

 

Still more than double the requirement of MLCP even at 20C flow temps and triple that at 60C

 

22 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

MLCP has quite restrictive inner bore sizes, from what I’ve seen ( @SimonD ? ), so does JG Speedfit, but Hep2o inserts are thin stainless sleeves which hardly impact on the bore / flow at all.

 

Yeah, this is the general criticism you get from the super copper zealots of heat pump piping, and those making pretty videos on YouTube showing miles of lovely copper in the cavenous plant room, even regarding the Hep2o inserts. 😉 I always use the Hep2o inserts, even though I use Speedfit push-fit out of preference. I found out directly from a pipe manufacturer that as long as the pipe and fittings are to the correct standard, they're interchangeable. Hence I use Pipelife PB pipe as it has the same guarantee that Hep2o and Speedfit but it's half the price. I know some will say no-no to this but a lot of purchasing decisions are made thanks to clever marketing and companies wanting you to buy in to the entire eco-system, just like in tech.

 

I just go by the principle of minimising fittings and using the natural capacity of the pipe to take bends - with MLCP it's a much easier task than both copper and PB/PEX. I have an MLCP ratchet hand bender which is compact and easy to use so makes this a really simple job - unlike with a copper pipe bender you can often use it in situe. So overall the pressure loss through the system is not a problem at all.

 

The problem as I see it is more the lazy approach to plumbing you see so much nowadays. Recently I was asked by a customer why their cold water pressure was so rubbish and I opened up the cupboard in the utility where the rising main was only to find a silly circuit of 15mm pushfit with about 12 elbows and a handful of Tees to get the pipe going through a water softener. 

 

43 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I won’t be converting to press-fit copper any time soon. Just a total

pita if you’ve not got a fitting spot on first time, loads to cut out if you feck up in a tight space like a plant room, and it’s very difficult to get the machine into tight spaces (where I can reach with solder and my lamp). 

 

It's definitely requires a change of thinking about piping workflow, but I have to say I now wouldn't go back. Piping up a full system install with copper press-fit is just so much nicer, cleaner, less smelly, and quicker. The welding torch stays in the van unless it's an absolute emergency. Even with the odd cock up I've found resolving it is pretty quick and straight forwards - even when the system is wet and full of water. The trick is to do as much dry fitting as possible first and then go through the pressing.

 

15 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

Ps, regarding your last paragraph: may I ask how long (or how many) systems you've used it on

 

Just helps give me a perspective of reliability 😉

 

Well, I'm a relative newbie to the heating industry. I've only been in it about 5-6 years now. However, it's never sensible to develop your perspective based on one person. All I can say is that I have no doubts whatsoever about installing a new heatpump, unvented cylinder, pipe and radiator upgrades using MLCP safe in the knowledge that I won't get a callback due to a leak and that the system will perform as intended. But better to look at how much the stuff has been used in industrial settings and domestic settings throughout Europe for a very long time. I though it was interesting when I watched a technical heatpump video on heatpump system balancing and refining weather compensation curves that was filmed in Germany. Everything in the example plant room was in MLCP and not a single sign of a piece of copper.

[Iceverge]

According to the makers. MCLP is suitable for hot ring mains where Hep isn't. 

 

It has more in common with hydraulics fittings than plumbing. Its rated for 10Bar continuous at 70deg where Hep you'd have to drop to 50deg ish to get the same rating. It's pretty achedemic in a domestic install but for a commercial setting I can see the advantage. 

 

In Ireland and UK we can't seem to get the 12mm fittings. I really like the 10mm Hep. Its like installing 3 core cable rather than pipe and for a radial system delivers hot water extremely fast, coupled with the slim inserts I'm getting 6l/min over 16m at 3Bar. That's plenty for everything except a shower/bath or jetwash kitchen tap. Failure mode in my wellwater experience is metal corrosion (copper/brass) and I love that Hep can avoid this almost entirely. I expect the stuff I put in to do 75 years +. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

19 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

I really like the 10mm Hep. Its like installing 3 core cable rather than pipe

 

Oh, it's great. I've got everything to basin/sink/toilet cystern on 10mm in my house, then just 15mm for everything else from a manifold. The 10mm completely negates the need for secondary return. When I offered to put in some 10mm for a customer having a new bathroom so they didn't have to use the excessive 22mm supply to the bathroom for their basin, the plumbers doing the bathroom install wouldn't have, telling them they had to have 22mm as it was coming from an unvented cylinder!

[JohnMo]

We just did 15mm to manifold and then 15mm to each wet room -

19 minutes ago, SimonD said:

they had to have 22mm as it was coming from an unvented cylinder!

22mm bonkers - plumber not really understanding anything.

[Iceverge]

Yup, I had 26mm mlcp coming from the UVC inexplicably via a manifold to the kitchen tap. 

 

It took about a minute and 9-10 litres of water to get warm at the tap. 

 

Solved (9-10secs) and about 1l of water to do the same thing with 10mm Hep2O. 

 

I should really have put the UVC closer to the kitchen.