Haier R290 Monobloc

[JohnMo]

19 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Does it do internal and external temperatures?

It does external and assumes 20 deg internal.

[JohnMo]

34 minutes ago, SimonD said:

One piece of kit for helping with this, that I'm seriously looking at is Adia

That's an interesting bit of kit

A video here

https://youtu.be/9sHmHa5ha_4?si=mir2dQesUXf0Aqgn

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

seriously looking at is Adia

Just found a price, £1500, smart but... if offsetting getting new radiators, new plumbing and paying for an engineer to optimise your system, then small beer. New build where you should know exactly wall, floor and roof buildup and get heat losses quite accurate and your installing new piping and radiators anyway, not really needed. But would idiot proof a lot of installs, assuming heat pump is massively oversized.

[SimonD]

24 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Just found a price, £1500, smart but... if offsetting getting new radiators, new plumbing and paying for an engineer to optimise your system, then small beer. New build where you should know exactly wall, floor and roof buildup and get heat losses quite accurate and your installing new piping and radiators anyway, not really needed. But would idiot proof a lot of installs, assuming heat pump is massively oversized.

 

Yes, absolutely, it could be a game changer in that context. From discussions one of the ideas behind it is that it's about taking the guesswork out of the system design so instead you put in the Adia with the heat pump to get a proper understanding of how the system works and then propose essential changes based on real world measurements. The only issue and question I've got about this approach in retrofits is the application of VAT because the VAT examption on installs is defined as single supply. Technically you could probably get away with it but I do wonder how the conversation with the HMRC might go if they questioned you.

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

the heat pump to get a proper understanding of how the system works and then propose essential changes based on real world measurements.

I've seen that way of doing things mentioned several times and the real world a lot of building could get away without much in the way of radiator changes.

 

VAT, include a contingency (deposit) to return assess and make x pre priced changes - fully refundable, less second visit service charge? Explain you could remove that charge, but full VAT, plus any grant funding, that was too have been included, would be payable for the second visit.

[SimonD]

27 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

VAT, include a contingency (deposit) to return assess and make x pre priced changes - fully refundable, less second visit service charge? Explain you could remove that charge, but full VAT, plus any grant funding, that was too have been included, would be payable for the second visit.

 

This is certainly a contender for how to manage it as there are already jobs where installing a volumiser, for example, might be priced but in the end it's unecessary so reduce the final invoice. The thing about single supply is that it depends on perspective. So if a customer considers all of the job as a reasonable single supply, then that is permitted at least in theory, even if there are several invoices.

[Beelbeebub]

If the goal is accurate capture of the radiator/heat loss situation could the unit be plumbed in as part of the survey - left for a week to do it's thing and then report what radiators need upgrading, what the flow balance situation is etc.  Removed with the install. 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

If the goal is accurate capture of the radiator/heat loss situation could the unit be plumbed in as part of the survey - left for a week to do it's thing and then report what radiators need upgrading, what the flow balance situation is etc.  Removed with the install. 

It's sold on the basis that no radiator or piping changes are needed. After a few weeks of capturing data, the home owners gets the options - stay as you are, and possibly upgrade radiators, for a given cost v cost saving on running cost.

 

Suppose the idea is for £4k plus a day or two labour you get a heat pump. If you have a cylinder already they can use that as well.

[Beelbeebub]

I do wonder why they include the pumo. With the exception of g6 Samsung pretty much all heatpump have a fairly powerful pump built in. The heat meter already has a flow meter (and some HPs also do). 

 

All you really need is a heat meter, possibly a pressure sensor, and then the ability to incrementally change each radiator flow. 

 

That would save a couple of hundred quid on thr BOM, which would translate to a hefty saving on the final price - at the cost of losing hydraulic separation, which you normally don't want anyway. 

[Beelbeebub]

more detailed explanation and peek inside. 

 

[JohnMo]

14 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

I do wonder why they include the pumo

Think it's there to cover all bases. Use the installed pump of the ASHP to overcome heat exchanger and piping to house. The secondary pump is there to push though micro bore if you need to. It's a one box to cover a lot of situations. Still not seen anything on how it works with UFH. It says one flow temperature systems including UFH are doable. But not seen any details.

[SimonD]

16 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

I do wonder why they include the pumo. With the exception of g6 Samsung pretty much all heatpump have a fairly powerful pump built in. The heat meter already has a flow meter (and some HPs also do). 

 

All you really need is a heat meter, possibly a pressure sensor, and then the ability to incrementally change each radiator flow. 

 

That would save a couple of hundred quid on thr BOM, which would translate to a hefty saving on the final price - at the cost of losing hydraulic separation, which you normally don't want anyway. 

 

There's a lot more to it than that. As I understand it at the moment,  the pump is a modulating pump which is just there to boost head where necessary, which is becoming less common with the current crop of pumps, but there are still heat pumps that require external circulators. 

 

The issue with the radiators is that if you use standard balancing approaches, they're only correct at certain flow/pressure situations, and other than pressure independent flow regulating valves, there aren't any other tools that are a reliable way to balance the flow through radiators for all operating conditons. Most of the industry still uses standard lockshields and some are now starting to use the flow regulating valves, just like the UFH ones. The Adia unit has its own valves and room stats that feedback information to the system to understand the local climate situation at each radiator and it can also adjust flow temps and flow rates etc. to those based on this information. Nothing else on the market can do this. However, the flow temps are still global ones.

 

What's also handy is the ability to control the system according to tou tariffs which I know customers really struggle with.

 

But I do agree with you that having a box that includes everything, where you need it or not, may be unecessary.

 

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Think it's there to cover all bases. Use the installed pump of the ASHP to overcome heat exchanger and piping to house. The secondary pump is there to push though micro bore if you need to. It's a one box to cover a lot of situations. Still not seen anything on how it works with UFH. It says one flow temperature systems including UFH are doable. But not seen any details.

 

My thinking is that its position is really for retrofits with primarily radiator circuits and at the moment there are limited heatpumps it can work with - I have one project I'm completing the design for right now with a troublesome heating area fed by inadequate pipe sizes but the customer is adamant they don't want any disruptive work, so pipes have to stay the same.

 

My worry about all these things is that it is a startup with unknown reserve capital and it largely seems like it's still in a development stage. They proudly display the venture capital firms, but having worked in the tech startup scene for about 10 years, I'm always cautious about this. This is an add-on product with currently limited compatibility with heat pump manufacturers living in the hope of an open protocol to be agreed across the industry. Looking at their team, they've clearly got a lot of very clever people on board, but other than a small number of testimonials, I can't see any real-world test evidence to back up their cost saving claims - and that always worries me.

 

I also wonder whether some of the benefits they're selling are really as valuable as made out because they are suggesting forms of zoning, which we know in practise aren't great and don't necessarily improve efficiencies or save on running costs.

 

For me, this is another of those 'solutions' being introduced to the market in the attempt to overcome common objections to installing heatpumps and trying to make it out like it's no different from installing a gas boiler, a bit like the new Zero disrupt scheme by Heat Geek. 

 

I'm taking the cynical view here, but I am thinking about how it might work very well for some projects, but it still doesn't and shouldn't detract from the fundamentals of good design and the long term benefit of designing and installing a system to run on good old low flow temperatures.

Edited 4 hours ago by SimonD

[JohnMo]

The other way to it, is borrow ideas for the Adia system and simplify.

 

Have heat pump on its own loop, CCT and additional pump for secondary loop, flow rate and match flow rate with secondary pump. Choose pump with enough head to go through existing pipes as required. Use flow setters on the existing rads at a dT to suit room and flow temps. Heat pump will modulate as needed to meet the heat extracted from the primary loop. Primary pump pulling almost zero Watts as no real head is needed.

 

Whether you actually need to include the CCT is questionable, you just install an additional pump on the piping to produce the additional head required on fixed duty (then there is no fight with 2x modulating pumps), to push though the existing pipes. Then do what you normally do to the system.