Looks like the party is over....

[Beelbeebub]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/13/hundreds-of-thousands-to-lose-heat-pump-subsidies-in-reevess-budget-plan

 

There are some valid criticisms of the current setup, but cutting it back seems a backwards step. 

 

Again I'll wave the flag for spending the same amount but on subsidies to guarentee the cost of heating by electricity and heatpump will never be more expensive than gas. 

 

I think it would cost less and speed up rollout. 

[Roger440]

21 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/13/hundreds-of-thousands-to-lose-heat-pump-subsidies-in-reevess-budget-plan

 

There are some valid criticisms of the current setup, but cutting it back seems a backwards step. 

 

Again I'll wave the flag for spending the same amount but on subsidies to guarentee the cost of heating by electricity and heatpump will never be more expensive than gas. 

 

I think it would cost less and speed up rollout. 

 

Whilst on a personal level, i wont be able to participate, the fact that i could get £45k of work done for free was never sustainable, and not a sensible way to spend taxpayer cash, given theres something of a shortage.

 

Still, some people got rich, quickly.

[JohnMo]

About time - grants just encourage higher costs and fly by night installers.

 

A heat pump install for a new build should be mandatory, with zero grants anyway. You can get a decent heat pump for around £2k, which is about the same cost as a decent boiler, that does priority domestic hot water and weather compensation. Which again should be mandatory.

[Beelbeebub]

100% agree with the new build. Shouldn't even be a question. And very easy to implement

 

Just change the building regs - set a.date in the not too distant future (a month or two after announcement) where any application after that date must have electric heating with a scop of at least 3.5 (or a similar metric like cop of at least 2.5 space heating at -10C)

 

That should ensure 200k+ installs a year. Which should be sufficient motivation to train a lot of installers and prime the supply chain. Which then makes the aftermarket easier.

 

And with the aftermarket there needs to be a way for Heatpumps to always be cheaper than gas. 

 

Obviously dropping the elec price relative to gas would help that. 

 

 

[Roger440]

12 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

100% agree with the new build. Shouldn't even be a question. And very easy to implement

 

Just change the building regs - set a.date in the not too distant future (a month or two after announcement) where any application after that date must have electric heating with a scop of at least 3.5 (or a similar metric like cop of at least 2.5 space heating at -10C)

 

That should ensure 200k+ installs a year. Which should be sufficient motivation to train a lot of installers and prime the supply chain. Which then makes the aftermarket easier.

 

And with the aftermarket there needs to be a way for Heatpumps to always be cheaper than gas. 

 

Obviously dropping the elec price relative to gas would help that. 

 

 

 

Mandating heat pump fitment is, as you say, easy. Mandating an actual performance level, pointless. Everyone will just lie as it is essentially not provable (other than by calculation) at the time of build.

 

Electricity prices are not coming down. Thats a certainty.

[JohnMo]

Just now, Roger440 said:

Electricity prices are not coming down. Thats a certainty.

Suspect we will find out on a couple of weeks, if there is no change in this budget, there never will be. The options that have are vat, and the green levy applied to to electric.

 

If electric came down in cost ratio with respect gas, some people may think about a heat pump, but for the 99% replacing a normal boiler, suspect it's not even on the radar - they all believe press hype, they are crap and would never work in their house.

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Suspect we will find out on a couple of weeks, if there is no change in this budget, there never will be. The options that have are vat, and the green levy applied to to electric.

 

If electric came down in cost ratio with respect gas, some people may think about a heat pump, but for the 99% replacing a normal boiler, suspect it's not even on the radar - they all believe press hype, they are crap and would never work in their house.

 

Sadly its not press hype, its the lived reality for most who have one. Can it be done properly and succesfully, Sure. Is it? Rarely.

 

I know several people with one. All are spending significantly more on heating than they were. I dont actually know anyone with a succesful installation.

 

The good thing about binning the grant is installers can stop taking the mick. Otherwise they will have no work. Not before time. 

[Beelbeebub]

It's fair enough that many installers and HP advocates glossed over the fsct that even though HPs are more efficient than boilers the cost differential on regular electric vs gas of around 4:1 means it can be hard to be cheaper than a gas boiler. 

 

 

That said, variable tariffs exist and it is entirely possible to achive break even or better with a well-designed system, ironically one which is often simpler and cheaper than the "giant buffer" installs that seem to be standard.

 

Ultimately we, as a country need to move off gas for heating.

 

Not only is it enviromentally sound, but it will reduce  our delendance on gas from unstable parts of the world run by dictators who might not be friendly towards us. 

 

This is both a strategic weak point and also puts our economy at the mercy of international gas prices.

 

There are some things we can do to reduce the ratio between gas and electric and we should. 

[Roger440]

We have had this convo before.

 

Theres lots of things that can be done. But they wont be.

[Michael_S]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

 

Sadly its not press hype, its the lived reality for most who have one. Can it be done properly and successfully, Sure. Is it? Rarely.

 

I know several people with one. All are spending significantly more on heating than they were. I dont actually know anyone with a succesful installation.

 

The good thing about binning the grant is installers can stop taking the mick. Otherwise they will have no work. Not before time. 

Works for us with a home made install, second hand 10 year old heat pump connected to the tails of a radiator running through undersized circulation loop and immersion hot water - but of course we have a big battery (60kwh via V2H) and a 6.7p overnight tariff so a cop of 3 for heating (and 1 for hot water) doesn't matter.

 

Total cost was about £600 but spent another £1000 this summer upgrading 7 radiators to allow lower flow temp, would have been cheaper but 5 are designer ones.

[Oz07]

10 hours ago, JohnMo said:

About time - grants just encourage higher costs and fly by night installers.

 

A heat pump install for a new build should be mandatory, with zero grants anyway. You can get a decent heat pump for around £2k, which is about the same cost as a decent boiler, that does priority domestic hot water and weather compensation. Which again should be mandatory.

Why would you mandate the method of heating i just don't get it. It's like an ideology. If the technology is better it will naturally be taken up. If you have to start mandating it maybe its not the best choice ?

[HughF]

7 hours ago, Michael_S said:

Works for us with a home made install, second hand 10 year old heat pump connected to the tails of a radiator running through undersized circulation loop and immersion hot water - but of course we have a big battery (60kwh via V2H) and a 6.7p overnight tariff so a cop of 3 for heating (and 1 for hot water) doesn't matter.

 

Total cost was about £600 but spent another £1000 this summer upgrading 7 radiators to allow lower flow temp, would have been cheaper but 5 are designer ones.

And that is how it should be done…. 

[HughF]

If you didn’t mandate it, the house builders would just fit electric panel rads as they’re cheaper. House builders always aim for the cheapest option.

 

[Oz07]

I remember years ago a discussion where I said govt would never let gas prices get too high as the whole country would freeze. Jeremy Harris disagreed and thought it beyond the capability of the govt. Look exactly what happened in covid or after Russia Ukraine, bills subsidised, money back off everyone's bill. Now I don't nessecarily agree with subsidising gas but its a political reality. Tell we get a gov of any colour with an actual spine then they will keep a lid on the costs of heating for majority of population even if the burden falls back on us through taxes. 

[Oz07]

1 minute ago, HughF said:

If you didn’t mandate it, the house builders would just fit electric panel rads as they’re cheaper. House builders always aim for the cheapest option.

 

I don't agree else why do people buy premium cars? If panel heaters are as bad as made out then people would rip them out and fit radiators. If heat pumps are as good as people make out they would be fitted without mandates. I do agree they seem a logical solution in a well insulated property but I think people are blinded by their bias. No need for mandate if best solution. 

[Oz07]

8 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

It's fair enough that many installers and HP advocates glossed over the fsct that even though HPs are more efficient than boilers the cost differential on regular electric vs gas of around 4:1 means it can be hard to be cheaper than a gas boiler. 

 

 

That said, variable tariffs exist and it is entirely possible to achive break even or better with a well-designed system, ironically one which is often simpler and cheaper than the "giant buffer" installs that seem to be standard.

 

Ultimately we, as a country need to move off gas for heating.

 

Not only is it enviromentally sound, but it will reduce  our delendance on gas from unstable parts of the world run by dictators who might not be friendly towards us. 

 

This is both a strategic weak point and also puts our economy at the mercy of international gas prices.

 

There are some things we can do to reduce the ratio between gas and electric and we should. 

Don't we have decades of the stuff still left in North Sea?

[HughF]

6 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

I don't agree else why do people buy premium cars? If panel heaters are as bad as made out then people would rip them out and fit radiators. If heat pumps are as good as people make out they would be fitted without mandates. I do agree they seem a logical solution in a well insulated property but I think people are blinded by their bias. No need for mandate if best solution. 

We could use the same logic with taxi drivers - Taxi drivers don’t buy premium cars. They buy cars that give them minimum cost of ownership whilst doing the job they need to do.

 

The big house builders fit the cheapest thing that does the job. Generic 70mm uPVC, minimum cavity insulation, ideal logic combo boilers.

 

I’m not talking about the people who frequent this forum and build ‘decent houses’ - I’m talking the big national house builders where it’s all about maximising profit whilst just about complying with the minimum standard set by BR.

 

They’d  fit electric panel rads because they’re dirt cheap.

[HughF]

9 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Don't we have decades of the stuff still left in North Sea?

Even if we do, it’s far more efficient to burn it in a CCGT, transmit the energy to the home as electricity, then run a heat pump with that electricity than it is to pipe the gas and then burn it in the home.

 

Breakeven point for efficiency is a scop of 2.8 iirc.

[Dillsue]

54 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Why would you mandate the method of heating i just don't get it. It's like an ideology. If the technology is better it will naturally be taken up. If you have to start mandating it maybe its not the best choice ?

When evaluating the "technology" do you think your average builder/plumber/householder considers the likely future global cost of dealing with climate change? I suspect the vast majority of builders/plumbers/householders look mainly/only at the £ROI to them and not the likely costs we're all going to pay in the future.

 

Stick a carbon levy on gas boilers and gas usage and people might start making better choices for us all??

[Dillsue]

59 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Don't we have decades of the stuff still left in North Sea?

Quite likely, but best keeping it there til we can use it more cleanly or save it for a rainy day

[HughF]

Remove the stupid planning restrictions around outdoor condensers and just pivot to air-air for domestic heating - much cheaper, easier to fit, f-gas industry is already existing and the units are already ‘smart’ out of the box which apparently people want these days.

 

Oh, and they cool out the box.

[Oz07]

1 hour ago, HughF said:

We could use the same logic with taxi drivers - Taxi drivers don’t buy premium cars. They buy cars that give them minimum cost of ownership whilst doing the job they need to do.

 

The big house builders fit the cheapest thing that does the job. Generic 70mm uPVC, minimum cavity insulation, ideal logic combo boilers.

 

I’m not talking about the people who frequent this forum and build ‘decent houses’ - I’m talking the big national house builders where it’s all about maximising profit whilst just about complying with the minimum standard set by BR.

 

They’d  fit electric panel rads because they’re dirt cheap.

Your analogy of taxi drivers is more akin to landlords. The taxi drivers don't build the cars they're consumers. 

A more appropriate question to honestly answer is if the govt removed all energy regs on housebuilding do you think the big builders would start fitting single glazed windows? Answer that honestly and I think its a no. Would we have got where we are without mandatory double glazing is another question, but enough homeowners retro fitted double glazing on their own back before it became mandatory, so the technology must be better than single glazing. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Oz07

[Oz07]

32 minutes ago, HughF said:

Remove the stupid planning restrictions around outdoor condensers and just pivot to air-air for domestic heating - much cheaper, easier to fit, f-gas industry is already existing and the units are already ‘smart’ out of the box which apparently people want these days.

 

Oh, and they cool out the box.

Are these just a normal air con unit? What are the restrictions?

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

Why would you mandate the method of heating i just don't get it. It's like an ideology. If the technology is better it will naturally be taken up. If you have to start mandating it maybe its not the best choice ?

It's basically mandatory not to use oil and gas in new build in Scotland, if they can it with way worse weather than England, the more natural choice is heat pump, storage heaters etc. And in Scotland you don't get a grant in a new build. So why should England. Hopefully the grant will just disappear. Cost will become realistic. If you have a big rambling house, you can afford to upgrade the heating yourself, so why should the tax payer help you out?

 

30 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

Stick a carbon levy on gas boilers and gas usage and people might start making better choices for us all

Yep

 

I have a heat pump, self installed didn't cost much, more expensive than a combi, but no more expensive than a decent system boiler and cylinder. But more importantly it's way cheaper to heat my house via HP than boiler. January 2022, at today's rates it cost me £100 in gas including standing charge. Via HP it will cost £65 ever with a cop of 3.

 

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

Don't we have decades of the stuff still left in North Sea?

Not the point really. A new build doesn't need a gas or oil boiler, however much you may disagree. 90% of new builds only need a sub 6kW heating (most less than half that), which is easily done by a heat pump, in most cases a gas boiler is way over sized for a new build, so why does that choice need to be there?

 

10 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

When evaluating the "technology" do you think your average builder/plumber/householder considers the likely future global cost of dealing with climate change

Easy take the choice away from them, don't let them decide.

 

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

ideology

Not really I built my house with a boiler, added heat pump for cooling as the boiler cannot do that. Kept the boiler used for heating then hybrid then straight heat pump. So have tried every combination - hands down just ASHP including cooling all summer is way cheaper than gas was just for heating.

 

6 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

What are the restrictions?

They are not allowed as permitted development, you need planning permission to install, if you follow the rules.

[Oz07]

@JohnMoI agree get rid of the grant. Get rid of the gas subsidy for all I care, but let the market decide. Why are you guys so opposed to gas boilers in newbuilds? I agree HP seem the way forward on a new build but I don't think you appreciate the level of understanding needed to install and run these things. You guys seem to take your scientific knowledge for granted and assume the layman posses the same. Your average householder just probably doesn't want all this COP, weather comp etc etc to deal with.

 

Changing the way dwellings are heated in the UK is going to make naff all difference to "climate change". As soon as solar and batteries are economical on a large scale they will take over naturally.

 

On a new build planning app if you mention air con unit will they be allowed to be installed? Whats the difference between these and a ASHP in planning terms?