What's the case for not getting an ASHP?

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

3 hours ago, MrPotts said:

We are spending billions on renewable energy whilst at the same time paying renewable energy companies millions to turn the supply to the grid off whenever the wind is too strong or the sun to bright. This is all added to our energy bills!

Expand  

This is true, but is a consequence of our grid not habug the right interconnections - it was.set up to supply power from a few concentrations of coal plants in the Midlands and North. Shifting power from thr coast is harder. Sometimes there isn't enough capacity to shift the power 

I am told by someone I trust on these matters is that this is not the principal reason.  The same person says that the principal reason is that there is a type of gas powered station that can't economically be turned down for less than about 24hrs, so to balance the grid other more flexible sources must be attenuated.  He also says that NESO's green objectives mean that by 2030 these will have to be eliminated.  In other words there is a plan. 

 

This is fair enough, infrastructure takes time to change and the future demands are not fully predictable particularly with a volatile political climate. 

 

Sometimes, if you bother to find out the facts, actions of government become much more understandable than click bait sound bites, motivated by self interest, would like us to believe.  For this reason my personal opinion is that it's best either to ignore or take with a pinch of salt such mischievous reporting designed solely to undermine experts and the government but actually with little foundation.

 

And yes @MrPotts it gets added to our bills, as it should because it's part of the cost of providing the ever present access to exactly the amount of electricity we want precisely when we demand it.  If we were more flexible then some of the infrastructure costs would reduce, but we aren't.

 

He also says that the elimination or reduction of these sources will likely result in nighttime TOU tarrifs becoming less favourable.

Edited yesterday at 17:28 by JamesPa

[sharpener]

3 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Primarily a compressor, which whilst it wont get used every day by any means is going to be 7-10kw affair. And a load of other much smaller stuff.

 

Seems to me that storing the energy as compressed air is a plausible solution (and has been trialled at utility scale), what are the economics of fitting a ginormous receiver?

 

7 hours ago, JamesPa said:

As it happens I don't think I have seen my total instantaneous house consumption exceed  5kW since my heat pump was installed and my EV acquired, but that's influenced by the fact that I only have a granny charger and a 7kW heat pump.

 

Even with a bigger house, a 12 kW (thermal) HP and a zappi 7kW EVCP we have found an 80A connection quite workable. 

 

The demand planner here is very useful for carrying out thought experiments.

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Ok. So the ENA statement that upgrades to support low carbon technologies are free is likely correct. We got a new transformer, 3 poles and 100metres of overhead cable FOC to facilitate solar export

 

Your situation doesn't fall into that category as you want 3 phase for a workshop. Seems to me that power supply isn't a reason for you not to have a heat pump, the workshop load is.

 

As pointed out the bulk of my issues are covered elsewhere.

 

So i abandoned the 3 phase and asked for a 100  amp 240v supply.

 

They dont know what im going to connect to the end of it. Nor were they interested. Its 80 amp max. The end. Well not quite. For connections over 80amp, they should be 3 phase. Which takes us straight back to a 20k cost. 

 

However, the ENA thing is interesting. 23kva is a good chunk more than 80 amps. 

 

Therefore the ENA statement is contrary to national grids position.

 

You are correct that take away the workshop and i can have a heatpump. But if i wanted an EV charger as well, in an all electric house, it starts to get very tight. Which i guess is why the ENA postion of 23kva makes a lot of sense. Except you cant have it if your particular DNO doesnt consider the ENA position relevant.  Which seems to be where we are.

 

One concludes that the ENA position is not fact or a requirement. Just a recommendation that can be roundly ignored if it suits the DNO.

 

At this stage im mostly over it. Lifes to short to argue with utlity companies. Ive got nowhere in 2.5 years.  Easier just to buy a genset. Useful for other reasons given our supply and where we are.

 

Is your new supply single or three phase?

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

 

Seems to me that storing the energy as compressed air is a plausible solution (and has been trialled at utility scale), what are the economics of fitting a ginormous receiver?

 

 

Even with a bigger house, a 12 kW (thermal) HP and a zappi 7kW EVCP we have found an 80A connection quite workable. 

 

The demand planner here is very useful for carrying out thought experiments.

 

Not remotely viable for space and cost reasons. When im using air, im using lots of it.

[Beelbeebub]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

I am told by someone I trust on these matters is that this is not the principal reason.  The same person says that the principal reason is that there is a type of gas powered station that can't economically be turned down for less than about 24hrs, so to balance the grid other more flexible sources must be attenuated.  He also says that NESO's green objectives mean that by 2030 these will have to be eliminated.  In other words there is a plan. 

I was referring to the curtailment. 

 

The issue with gas setting the price most of the time may well be as you say. I've noticed that there is always 2gw or so of gas in our generation mix even when it seems it isn't needed. It just sits there in the mix even as interconnect, renewables, demand etc rise and fall.

 

If that falls away we may well start to get cheaper elec, but that will have a knock on effect on renewables build out

 

Still the point is, renewables are growing fast and promise cheaper electricity when we turn off the majority of gas. 

 

I do still believe we will need a fairly big gas capacity (maybe even more than now) to cover us for some of the winter etc, but running the UK 90% of the time on lure renewables and burning a bit of gas every now and then is a perfectly acceptable target for the medium term. 

[Beelbeebub]

13 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Not remotely viable for space and cost reasons. When im using air, im using lots of it.

Can I ask, how long for? Like 7kw of air all day or 7kw for an hour or so? 

 

I wonder if an 8kw 3ph inverter/battery would do you? 

 

Solax do one (x3 ies) 

 

With 20kwh of battery storage you could run for over 2h at full pelt without drawing anything from the grid. 

 

IIRC they feature a 2x overload for upto 10 seconds ie 16kw which should sort out startup currents

[Beelbeebub]

Also, I'm curious what you using the air for? I'm trying to think of a hobby that uses 7kw of compressed air!

 

Is it for a pumpkin cannon?! 😁

[JamesPa]

17 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

was referring to the curtailment

Can you clarify please, I thought I'd addressed your comment but maybe I didn't understand it!

[JohnMo]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

Seems to me that storing the energy as compressed air is a plausible solution

And about the most dangerous way to store energy. One reason you don't air test pressure vessels is the explosive power of rapid expanding gas or air should you get a failure.

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

Seems to me that storing the energy as compressed air is a plausible solution (and has been trialled at utility scale), what are the economics of fitting a ginormous receiver?

Not read this, but seen it referenced.

 

https://nora.nerc.ac.uk/id/eprint/530481/1/Evans_et_al_2021_AS.pdf

[Roger440]

55 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Can I ask, how long for? Like 7kw of air all day or 7kw for an hour or so? 

 

I wonder if an 8kw 3ph inverter/battery would do you? 

 

Solax do one (x3 ies) 

 

With 20kwh of battery storage you could run for over 2h at full pelt without drawing anything from the grid. 

 

IIRC they feature a 2x overload for upto 10 seconds ie 16kw which should sort out startup currents

 

When i use it, it will be for extended periods.

 

As you ask, primarily, aqua blasting or painting. Aqua blasting is very air hungry and could be several hours. Any battery capable of supporting that will cost as much as a 3 phase connection.  

 

This needs to be low cost. Its just a hobby, albeit an out of control one. 2-3k i can live with, 20k i cant.

 

 

[sharpener]

30 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

And about the most dangerous way to store energy. One reason you don't air test pressure vessels is the explosive power of rapid expanding gas or air should you get a failure.

 

Yes, but high energy density! Which is why it is used for storing the energy for launching torpedos from submarines, my sometime employers had contracts for the refurbishment of the pressure vessels which were expoxy lined steel.

[Beelbeebub]

9 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

When i use it, it will be for extended periods.

 

As you ask, primarily, aqua blasting or painting. Aqua blasting is very air hungry and could be several hours. Any battery capable of supporting that will cost as much as a 3 phase connection.  

 

This needs to be low cost. Its just a hobby, albeit an out of control one. 2-3k i can live with, 20k i cant.

 

 

I'm intrigued! Painting, I assume, is just normal airbrush painting like for cars etc. 

 

What is aqua blasting? 

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Though ill still need to step up to 80A if i get a HP as the shower and cooker are both electric at 30A each and occasionally are used at the same time.

Oil combi? 

[Roger440]

12 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

I'm intrigued! Painting, I assume, is just normal airbrush painting like for cars etc. 

 

What is aqua blasting? 

 

Bead blasting with glass and water.

[Roger440]

12 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Oil combi? 

 

I hate combi's!

[Dillsue]

13 hours ago, Roger440 said:

They dont know what im going to connect to the end of it.

 

Therefore the ENA statement is contrary to national grids position.

 

One concludes that the ENA position is not fact or a requirement. Just a recommendation that can be roundly ignored if it suits the DNO.

 

Is your new supply single or three phase?

Our original and upgraded supply is single phase 100amp.

 

Our DNO states the low carbon technology (LCT)connection upgrades are free and I'm quite sure the ENA statement is true. Your experience isnt for an LCT connection, it's for a workshop, for which you should rightly pay....the free LCT connections are almost certainly tax payer or bill payer funded.

 

I'm sure if you ran your big workshop loads off a genny then an 80amp supply will be fine for an efficient electrified house and workshop basics

[Roger440]

26 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

Our original and upgraded supply is single phase 100amp.

 

Our DNO states the low carbon technology (LCT)connection upgrades are free and I'm quite sure the ENA statement is true. Your experience isnt for an LCT connection, it's for a workshop, for which you should rightly pay....the free LCT connections are almost certainly tax payer or bill payer funded.

 

I'm sure if you ran your big workshop loads off a genny then an 80amp supply will be fine for an efficient electrified house and workshop basics

 

Im not sure i explained myself well.

 

The connection is NOT for a workshop. Its for the house. The workshop is fed from the house. Its a domestic connection. You could have a workshop in your garage too if you were so minded.

 

The DNO's postion is "no connections over 80 amp". Doesnt matter what its for.  ENA are saying 93 amps (23kva). National Grid wont do that.

 

That 80 amps might be fine isnt really my point. Its the fact the DNO's position is counter to the ENA one. As the DNO do the work, it renders to ENA's pronouncement irelevant.

[JamesPa]

12 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

The DNO's postion is "no connections over 80 amp". Doesnt matter what its for.  ENA are saying 93 amps (23kva). National Grid wont do that.

80A is surely enough for your ashp, EV and domestic needs, even 60A could be made to work.  If you need more for non/abnormal domestic purposes it's right that you should pay.

 

Earlier on this thread you used the DNO position to justify your statement that government isn't serious about carbon reduction.  Was that really a fair statement given what you have subsequently told us about your use?

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

The connection is NOT for a workshop. Its for the house. The workshop is fed from the house. Its a domestic connection. You could have a workshop in your garage too if you were so minded.

Your explanation has been a bit piecemeal but as I understand it you originally wanted a 3 phase supply upgrade for your workshop for which NG wanted £20k. You've backed off on the 3 phase wish but you've already shared with NG that you have quite a substantial workshop demand. If NG have assessed your domestic needs as being met with an 80amp supply, why would they go beyond that for free knowing that any extra will be feeding the workshop? The ENA statement says its UP TO 23kva for free. It's likely public money being spent and they should rightly only meet your domestic need.

 

I think there's a bit of a difference in an average domestic garage/workshop compared to one where the owner wants a 3 phase supply to run what sounds like a commercial sized car workshop??

[JamesPa]

There is a further side to this.  If the demand is such that 3phase is either advised or required, then dno will be concerned about phase imbalance if they supply it all on a single phase. 

 

Having alerted them to a 3phase requirement it would be entirely reasonable of them to be suspicious of a revised single phase specification which exceeds the domestic norm.  Hiding behind it being a spur off of a connection to the house isn't going to help.  DNO had a duty to protect the (shared) network for the benefit of all.  There are good technical reasons behind restrictions on single phase supplies.

Edited 9 hours ago by JamesPa

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

I hate combi's!

Oil ones blast the DHW out. Way better than gas equivalent.

 

As you have oil on site, maybe better to pick the battles accordingly to see if you can cope on their offering for a single supply.

[sharpener]

6 hours ago, JamesPa said:

80A is surely enough for your ashp, EV and domestic needs, even 60A could be made to work.  If you need more for non/abnormal domestic purposes it's right that you should pay.

 

Yes. The other fly in the ointment is the electric shower. No-one would sensibly keep that once they had had an HP installed.

 

As upthread 80A is sufficient for an EV, a cooker and an HP all at the same time. But evening cooking load falls mainly in a peak rate period, which is where the battery comes in handy and of course that avoids demand on the grid.

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Your explanation has been a bit piecemeal but as I understand it you originally wanted a 3 phase supply upgrade for your workshop for which NG wanted £20k. You've backed off on the 3 phase wish but you've already shared with NG that you have quite a substantial workshop demand. If NG have assessed your domestic needs as being met with an 80amp supply, why would they go beyond that for free knowing that any extra will be feeding the workshop? The ENA statement says its UP TO 23kva for free. It's likely public money being spent and they should rightly only meet your domestic need.

 

I think there's a bit of a difference in an average domestic garage/workshop compared to one where the owner wants a 3 phase supply to run what sounds like a commercial sized car workshop??

 

Lets be clear, NG havent "assesed" my needs.  I havent supplied anything like enough info for them to do so, as is detailed in their own policy document. The answer is no, regardless of the needs or otherwise. Because theres only 2 properties on the transformer. This situation would apppear to trump all other policies.

 

But  i guess on the basis you decribe, the moral of the story, is dont be honest. Sadly, this all started before ENA started doing their thing.

 

Ill not make the same mistake again.

 

As i said, im clearly not going to get a supply upgrade, so burning oil and diesel remains the only affordable route forward. Which i still think is bonkers. But there we have it. On the upside it gives me complete independance.

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

Yes. The other fly in the ointment is the electric shower. No-one would sensibly keep that once they had had an HP installed.

 

As upthread 80A is sufficient for an EV, a cooker and an HP all at the same time. But evening cooking load falls mainly in a peak rate period, which is where the battery comes in handy and of course that avoids demand on the grid.

 

I follow the logic.

 

However, that would then mean finding a home for a rather larger tank somewhere. Which in what is a pretty small house isnt all that easy.

 

But clearly, its a massive load i could well do without.

 

Batteries are expensive. I hadnt planned on fitting any. Though i have a possible loose plan to use my forklift batteries. But thats all a bit "non standard" and im not sure im clever enough to make that work. 

 

As per above post, burning oil and diesel is,  by a long way, the most cost effective option to both heating and workshop supply.

 

I think in my rework of my heating system, i should provision for a HP in case something changes in the future.