What's the case for not getting an ASHP?

[Gone West]

23 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Can't speak for oil, but my ashp is 20pc cheaper to run than my condensing gas boiler even though was actually set up to condense (unlike the vast majority and despite the efforts of the maintainer to reset it each time he did a service the boiler).  It's also far more comfortable and doesn't contribute anything like as much to climate change.  What's not to like?

I haven't lived anywhere with mains gas for several decades, but I do know that currently, oil is very roughly, 10% cheaper than gas and 75% cheaper than electricity, accepting the volatility of prices. If installing an ASHP I would, at the very least, have to replace all my radiators as well. I therefore stick to my original statement, that for me, replacing my old Aga with a new condensing oil boiler is the best option for both installation and running costs. I accept that my option doesn't help with climate change.

[JamesPa]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Oil is currently the cheapest form of heating. 

The operative term being currently.  Cast your mind back a few years and oil was the most expensive.  That will doubtless  happen again at some point.  No certainty at all over this matter!

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, IGP said:

There is a kernel of truth there, as solutions like Havenwise wouldn’t exist. However, the fact that they do exist means that this tinkering as mentioned will be done automatically by services like Havenwise for the majority of people - giving them the benefits the people on these boards get from doing things manually now. 
 

So, I’d say that argument is going to be a moot point not long from now. 

Absolutely spot on. I could have paid £50 per year for Havenwise ((first 6 months free, no hardware needed) and the easy adjustment I made manually would have been automated (and more besides).  I chose not to (I may yet do so) but it's hardly a lot to pay and anyway would almost certainly more than pay for itself even for me.

Edited yesterday at 09:28 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

If i asked the average man on the clapham omnibus, if they had weather comp on their heating, how many would even know what you were on about?

True, but unfortunate, and a problem which more enlightened countries don't have because they made weather compensation mandatory for boilers many years ago. 

 

As a consequence of the fact we didn't and the public remain ignorant, we are paying about 10% more for our (gas or oil) heating than we need to, and are less comfortable.  Of course we can persist with doing something stupid, and encourage others to do so, or alternatively we and our backward heating industry can grow up!  

 

My saving of 20%is relative to a has boiler that was actually condensing.  Most people will start with one that isn't!

 

Edited yesterday at 09:53 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

11 hours ago, LnP said:

The engineering company Arup did a quantitative risk assessment comparing the risks of natural gas boilers compared to hydrogen ones. Natural gas ones were their base case. Their model predicted 17 individuals killed or injured per year in GB from gas explosions. This excludes explosions related to appliances by for example, people leaving gas hobs unlit. It would be valid to say that replacing all gas boilers with heat pumps would save 17 fatalities or injuries per year in GB. They didn't include CO poisoning so in this respect they underestimated the risk of gas boilers.

 

I wouldn't like to comment whether the risk is "massive", but it's clear heat pumps are safer than gas boilers.

This is an interesting point.  If gas were invented now, would it even be legal?  Pumping indefinite amounts of an explosive substance into our houses is a bit weird when you think about it!

[JohnMo]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Oil is currently the cheapest form of heating

Sorry to much of a sweeping statement, for some properties it maybe, but with solar and battery heat pump wins all the time, my current average cost of electricity is 3p per kWh, average over the year about 10p maybe less, without including export credits. Get a scop of 3 that's 3.3p per kWh, get a SCoP of 4 that's down to 2.5p per kWh.

[JohnMo]

20 hours ago, JamesPa said:

True, but unfortunate,

You could expand the question and ask if they had a gas or electric boiler and still get the same blank expression. Most people just don't care, it's not even on a radar, let alone something to think about. If it's warm enough job done. If it isn't call the plumber, he'll fix it.

 

Until I built my house heating was something that just happened, I didn't care, gas was cheap, I was earning, so the heating got left on 365 days a year, in chilly Scotland.

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, Gone West said:

. If installing an ASHP I would, at the very least, have to replace all my radiators as well. I therefore stick to my original statement, that for me, replacing my old Aga with a new condensing oil boiler is the best option for both installation and running costs. I accept that my option doesn't help with climate change.

...nor are you getting any of the comfort benefits of low temperature heating of course.  Obviously these are house, and to an extent person, dependent.

[marshian]

13 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

...nor are you getting any of the comfort benefits of low temperature heating of course.  Obviously these are house, and to an extent person, dependent.

having journeyed from scheduled high flow temp 65 + heating (barely any condensing savings except in warm up phase) to scheduled heating flow temp 45 to 55 max where the boiler was always condensing (although not to max eff) and then finally to low temp heating 23.5/7 ditching all schedules with a weather compensated flow temp between 25 to 35 max there is no way I would go back to scheduled heating.
 

The cost difference is insignificant compared to the huge benefit in comfort factors.
 

House never overheats, everything in it is a nice temp (it’s the little things like I don’t miss coming into a house where air temp is fine in all rooms and sitting on a cold leather sofa)

 

It really was a total game changer. 

[Gone West]

14 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Oil is currently the cheapest form of heating.

Of the three, gas, electricity and oil, oil is definitely the cheapest type of purchased fuel for older properties.

Of course if you build a new low energy consumption house, electricity will work out cheaper. I designed and built a PH and I heated it to 23C just with electric towel rails and a 600W EASHP. That isn't what @Roger440 nor I was talking about.

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Pumping indefinite amounts of an explosive substance into our houses is a bit weird when you think about it!

We got seriously told off by the fire brigade when they found out we had 200 lt of acetone in the factory, and no spirit licence.

(Factory next door was alight and serviced had to wake everyone up in a 200m diameter zone)

Edited yesterday at 12:24 by SteamyTea

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Sorry to much of a sweeping statement, for some properties it maybe, but with solar and battery heat pump wins all the time, my current average cost of electricity is 3p per kWh, average over the year about 10p maybe less, without including export credits. Get a scop of 3 that's 3.3p per kWh, get a SCoP of 4 that's down to 2.5p per kWh.

 

But you have failed to consider your capital investment to get you to that point. Which is considerable, or certainly would be had you paid to have it done.

 

If i factor in the capital cost, ill likely be dead before i break even.

 

Of course, if you are starting with no heating system at all then that skews thing a bit more in favour of ASHP and solar.

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

with solar and battery heat pump wins all the time,

The Steading power went off along with thousands of other houses due to storms.  Thus the heat pump didn't work either. There is currently no backup.

 

I will be asking for advice on here soon I think.

 

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, JamesPa said:

The operative term being currently.  Cast your mind back a few years and oil was the most expensive.  That will doubtless  happen again at some point.  No certainty at all over this matter!

 

Id bet good money that electricity isnt getting cheaper anytime soon. Indeed, quite the opposite.

 

Oil will of course continue to fluctuate based on global events, but unless government artifically raise it be some devious tax means, then im confident it will continue to be a cost effective method of heating.

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

...nor are you getting any of the comfort benefits of low temperature heating of course.  Obviously these are house, and to an extent person, dependent.

Nothing to stop you running your oil boiler at a lower temp. Could even get it to condense!

 

Ive screwed mine well down. Big reduction in cycling. Lower radiator temps. Much lower. Im not uncomfortable.

 

Fortunately im able to understand the concept. Sadly most people dont, and never will, so will complain their ASHP system is no good, even if its just fine.

 

Whatever you may or may not think, perception is reality.

[JohnMo]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The Steading power went off along with thousands of other houses due to storms.  Thus the heat pump didn't work either. There is currently no backup.

 

I will be asking for advice on here soon I think.

I started with a Hyundai 7.9kW generator, big enough to cook my tea, have lights, heating and TV on. £800

[Roger440]

10 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The Steading power went off along with thousands of other houses due to storms.  Thus the heat pump didn't work either. There is currently no backup.

 

I will be asking for advice on here soon I think.

 

 

A nice diesel genset. 

 

Proved invaluable last winter during the storm when we lost power for over 2 days. 

 

I need a quieter one though.

[sharpener]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The Steading power went off along with thousands of other houses due to storms.  Thus the heat pump didn't work either. There is currently no backup.

 

I will be asking for advice on here soon I think.

 

 

A gas or oil boiler would have failed too. Admittedly  to run a heat pump you will need a bigger battery to be useful (or @JohnMo's generator. I have got an interlock which turns my HP off automatically on grid failure, this gives me time to switch it into low power mode or decide to do without it. 

Also have kept the oil-fired AGA, and for the real extreme case I have one of my grandmother's Aladdin oil lamps.

[JohnMo]

13 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

But you have failed to consider your capital investment

No its all costed, ASHP as retro fit.  Heat Pump including cylinder and aux stuff was about £3k (careful shopper). Spend about the same on PV (some new others second hand, but basically new).  Battery was quite a bit more expensive, but has a pay back of about 5 years excluding export (which I now have, so should be way shorter). I never expect to pay more than 13p (excluding inflation) per kWh even when -9 outsade and ASHP has to earn its keep, so half normal price, with PV contribution.

[Roger440]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

No its all costed, ASHP as retro fit.  Heat Pump including cylinder and aux stuff was about £3k (careful shopper). Spend about the same on PV (some new others second hand, but basically new).  Battery was quite a bit more expensive, but has a pay back of about 5 years excluding export (which I now have, so should be way shorter). I never expect to pay more than 13p (excluding inflation) per kWh even when -9 outsade and ASHP has to earn its keep, so half normal price, with PV contribution.

 

We may be talking cross purposes? I meant your quoted pence per kWh. 

 

 

[Dillsue]

23 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Oil will of course continue to fluctuate based on global events, but unless government artifically raise it be some devious tax means, then im confident it will continue to be a cost effective method of heating.

When you consider the cost of heating with oil/gas are you including the current and future cost that we'll all have to pay to deal with a worsening climate crisis due to continued burning of fossil fuels?

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

When you consider the cost of heating with oil/gas are you including the current and future cost that we'll all have to pay to deal with a worsening climate crisis due to continued burning of fossil fuels?

 

No. 

 

The climates going to change irrespective of my heating choices. Nothing i do, or the country does will make one iota of difference to the future of that. 

 

If you want to believe that you fitting a ASHP will, you are of course welcome.

 

If you want to pay to change my curently perfectly functioning heating,for a more expensive type,  i am of course happy to accept your generous donations.

 

Im guessing if i wait long enough, the government will pay me to change it anyway, so ill wait.

[Dillsue]

16 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Eh?

 

Theres literally millions of houses with gas boilers, including the OP.

 

I think if it was a "massive risk" they wouldnt be in said millions of homes.

You said to fit a gas boiler as there were no downside risks to doing that. I said there's potentially massive risks if you've got kids.

 

In reply to your "Eh?"- If we continue down the road of burning fossil fuels it will be our kids that have to deal with the fallout of us kicking the can down the road. In the same way that the current generation is having to suffer the cost of dealing with our parents limited action.

 

All expert opinion I see suggests that the longer we leave dealing with climate change the more expensive it's gonna be, which our kids/grandkids will cop for.

[JamesPa]

40 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

If you want to pay to change my curently perfectly functioning heating,for a more expensive type,  i am of course happy to accept your generous donations.

So generous of you.  The next generation will really appreciate it!

 

But actually nobody is suggesting you do this.  The thread was started by someone whose boiler has broken down.

Edited yesterday at 14:39 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

49 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Nothing to stop you running your oil boiler at a lower temp.

Not without changing his radiators which was what @gonewest was arguing was a reason for him not to get an ashp.  Yours may of course be more oversized than his.