Posi joist - This install feels rubbish, thoughts?

[Kelvin]

Lay out why he’s in breach and be specific i.e. you provided updated plans version xx on date. Detail all the extra cost you have incurred including any estimated costs due to delays. Then end the contract. You can’t continue with him at any level in my opinion. He will likely claim loss of earnings judging by his response to you so be prepared for that. 

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, boxrick said:

No one is faultless, there has been changes in plans and he has dealt with me amicably.

It's great to avoid unnecessary nastiness, and try to resolve amicably. 

BUT you say above...   "But he constantly keeps shifting blame to me, saying he can put it right, guilt me etc. "

 

So, hard as it may seem, you need to be unapologetic.  Just don't say these things. If in doubt, leave it out. Stick to facts so that it is not personal.

 

eg don't say  you have built it wrongly and it is awful....instead, say there are serious issues.... that sort of thing.

 

FYI i have shown your photos to the non-technical family members who are around. (They have some feel for construction through exposure to it in family life and business)  They spotted some of the issues, notably the screw fixings and the cut beam. So there is no excuse for your builder having left it like that.

[SBMS]

9 hours ago, boxrick said:

Here are my thoughts of a message / email:

I want to make my position fully clear and address some points about documentation and changes to plans.

Throughout the project, whenever plans or specifications have changed, I have made you aware as early as possible and shared all updated documentation without delay. Any differences from previous versions were always clearly highlighted, and I sent emails to confirm and explain these changes.
 

On several occasions I also noticed you were working from outdated plans or documents, and I pulled this up immediately to prevent further mistakes. To ensure there was no confusion, I paid my architect to update plans professionally, and I shared these updated documents with you at the earliest opportunity.

Additional works from these I have bore the payment for, and I have never asked for any favours or reductions in cost for genuine mistakes or additional work you had to undertake.

Any changes as you highlighted are often you just not working to the architects specifications, and the majority of these items have never changed.
 

In addition to the previously mentioned issues with the roof, DPM and insulation, there have been other significant problems on site, including:

• Charging me for remedial work required due to your own errors, some of which is still unresolved and now my responsibility to fix.

• Knocking down a wall by mistake and then charging me for rebuilding it.

• Poor quality blockwork and general workmanship.

• Building walls in incorrect locations, which I had to raise and have corrected.

• Failing to prepare for the DNO electricity main relocation despite multiple warnings, causing delays and extra cost.

• Improper installation of the water meter, which I then had to have rectified last minute at my own expense.

• Failing to secure the site, with scaffolding left open and untagged, and put onto a neighbour’s land without permission and all over the pavement without the permission of the pavement owners.

These are not minor snags but ongoing breaches and poor practices, despite my efforts to provide accurate, timely information.

I have comprehensive pictures at every stage and am happy to share as needed.
 

Given all of this:
 

I will take full responsibility for the roof works from now on. You will have no further involvement or liability for the roof. It is just too important and I need to have full confidence it is built to a high standard
We can proceed with the brick works as quoted, paid on satisfactory completion only.

Once those works are complete, I will re evaluate and decide how or if we continue with any further work.

I trust this sets out my position. Please confirm you understand and agree, or let me know if you wish to discuss anything further.
 

Regards,
Rick

Rick -

would strongly advise against this position and sending a letter like this. At this stage your builder is possibly preparing themselves for legal proceedings. In this instance you are absolutely advised to commit as little as possible to written (or even verbal form). 
 

I would advise that you don’t continue with this contractor under any circumstances - and get yourself in a headspace where you’ve accepted you need to find someone else.

reading your contract you can’t unilaterally terminate the contract as there is the provision for remediation.

 

My first course would be to request a without prejudice conversation with your builder. Within this conversation (have a third party present such as your SE, architect or a friend) set out that from your point of view the trust and relationship has degraded to a point of no return and you do not under any circumstances want the builder to continue. Explain that if that isn’t agreeable you will exercise clause 37 and at the builders Cost they will be required to replace all posi rafters and fit them to the satisfaction of your SE. State that Pasquill have advised they are likely not recoverable. This is an expensive exercise for the builder. Others may suggest you try and get them to cover the cost of doing the job right. Personally I wouldn’t trust them anywhere near my site. I would seek a negotiated exit and write off getting any money back.

 

Alternatively, if the builder doesn’t agree I would advise you exercise clause 37 immediately. I doubt that they will remediate within 14 days but if you don’t follow the provisions of your contract your builder can pursue you. 
 

I would advise a letter that is entirely factual, unemotional and succinct if you need to serve a breach notice. I can help draft one if you need. Accept your relationship with your builder is over. 
 

 

[SteeVeeDee]

On 26/07/2025 at 10:58, boxrick said:

Yea this is the same guy

 

One picture I didn't share is they have also just cut this steel. It's one of the valley beams. 
 

It's not in any SE plans or similar.

 

I've only just started scrolling through this thread. This picture tells me enough that you need to stop works now and have a site meeting with your professionals and contractors. The Pozi joist install is horrific and looks like they are fitted by imbeciles that have only a screw gun and a blunt hand saw. This steel work is so obviously wrong that its not just a matter of comparing workmanship standards. 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, SteeVeeDee said:

I've only just started scrolling through this thread. This picture tells me enough that you need to stop works now and have a site meeting with your professionals and contractors. The Pozi joist install is horrific and looks like they are fitted by imbeciles that have only a screw gun and a blunt hand saw. This steel work is so obviously wrong that its not just a matter of comparing workmanship standards. 

Quite easy to demonstrate that assets have been damaged beyond economical repair here.

 

Completely ignored SE remit etc and gone rogue with their own, unsuccessful, and non BC compliant, set of rules….

[SteeVeeDee]

15 hours ago, SBMS said:

Rick -

would strongly advise against this position and sending a letter like this. At this stage your builder is possibly preparing themselves for legal proceedings. In this instance you are absolutely advised to commit as little as possible to written (or even verbal form). 
 

I would advise that you don’t continue with this contractor under any circumstances - and get yourself in a headspace where you’ve accepted you need to find someone else.

reading your contract you can’t unilaterally terminate the contract as there is the provision for remediation.

 

My first course would be to request a without prejudice conversation with your builder. Within this conversation (have a third party present such as your SE, architect or a friend) set out that from your point of view the trust and relationship has degraded to a point of no return and you do not under any circumstances want the builder to continue. Explain that if that isn’t agreeable you will exercise clause 37 and at the builders Cost they will be required to replace all posi rafters and fit them to the satisfaction of your SE. State that Pasquill have advised they are likely not recoverable. This is an expensive exercise for the builder. Others may suggest you try and get them to cover the cost of doing the job right. Personally I wouldn’t trust them anywhere near my site. I would seek a negotiated exit and write off getting any money back.

 

Alternatively, if the builder doesn’t agree I would advise you exercise clause 37 immediately. I doubt that they will remediate within 14 days but if you don’t follow the provisions of your contract your builder can pursue you. 
 

I would advise a letter that is entirely factual, unemotional and succinct if you need to serve a breach notice. I can help draft one if you need. Accept your relationship with your builder is over. 
 

 

 

This is the correct course of action in my opinion. 

[SteeVeeDee]

I'm curious about who the builders are and how they were awarded this contract. The workmanship I've seen so far is terrible and it sounds as if the process has been difficult to say the least. I wonder if qualifications and references were checked before starting works. 

[Nickfromwales]

38 minutes ago, SteeVeeDee said:

I'm curious about who the builders are and how they were awarded this contract. The workmanship I've seen so far is terrible and it sounds as if the process has been difficult to say the least. I wonder if qualifications and references were checked before starting works. 

Loads of shitheads hide behind so-called qualifications. Pointless looking at those, you just need to look at previous work, or to get to speak directly with previous customers.

 

I’ve had a recent potential client reach out to others I’m working for, so they can vouch for me, and there’s nowhere to hide then as these chats are undertaken well away from me.

 

Proof is always in the pudding, just unfortunate that this one’s a tuna melt.

 

The intolerable part here is this chaos ignorance, blame-shifting, and incompetence, plus most builders leave their +1 behind with a labourer, offer minimal information / GAF, and leave them to their own devices.

 

Results speak for themselves. 

[SBMS]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Loads of shitheads hide behind so-called qualifications. Pointless looking at those, you just need to look at previous work, or to get to speak directly with previous customers.

 

I’ve had a recent potential client reach out to others I’m working for, so they can vouch for me, and there’s nowhere to hide then as these chats are undertaken well away from me.

 

Proof is always in the pudding, just unfortunate that this one’s a tuna melt.

 

The intolerable part here is this chaos ignorance, blame-shifting, and incompetence, plus most builders leave their +1 behind with a labourer, offer minimal information / GAF, and leave them to their own devices.

 

Results speak for themselves. 

One challenge is the builder often takes you to a 'satisfied' customer.  That customer might have been totally hands off, not inspected work, and have no clue as to what issues are lurking in the building fabric...

[SteeVeeDee]

33 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Loads of shitheads hide behind so-called qualifications. Pointless looking at those, you just need to look at previous work, or to get to speak directly with previous customers.

 

I’ve had a recent potential client reach out to others I’m working for, so they can vouch for me, and there’s nowhere to hide then as these chats are undertaken well away from me.

 

Proof is always in the pudding, just unfortunate that this one’s a tuna melt.

 

The intolerable part here is this chaos ignorance, blame-shifting, and incompetence, plus most builders leave their +1 behind with a labourer, offer minimal information / GAF, and leave them to their own devices.

 

Results speak for themselves. 

 

Pointless looking at qualifications? Get a grip of yourself.

 

An unqualified person looking at previous work by definition doesn't really know what they're looking at.

Similarly, a recommendation from a previous customer or a friend isn't really of much value other than very limited for similar reasons. A reference is only of value if its from someone that is verifiably competent to do so i.e. has a provable qualification. 

 

Gaining a trade qualification is a significant indicator that a tradesman has at least met a minimum standard of knowledge and ability in the past. Unskilled men like to criticise skilled men because they want to deflect from the fact that they were too arrogant to submit to the process and just wanted to get bodging.

 

The vast majority of bad work is done by unskilled men, not those with a trade. Being an apprentice isn't easy and its bloody hard work keeping it going for four or five years. 

[SteeVeeDee]

39 minutes ago, SBMS said:

One challenge is the builder often takes you to a 'satisfied' customer.  That customer might have been totally hands off, not inspected work, and have no clue as to what issues are lurking in the building fabric...

 

I genuinely don't understand why customers don't ask for proof of qualifications and experience.

 

For example the apprenticeship paperwork may be from decades ago but what CPD has been done recently?

 

I would be open to admit that my experience on prefabricated timber frames is out of date and although I'd get back up to speed fairly quickly, it won't be as good as someone either more recently qualified or from someone that works on timber frames regularly.

 

The workmanship levels could be contrasted e.g. would someone want to hire a recently graduated carpenter who it is hoped knows all the current regulations, versus someone who's been working for 10 years but has some research to do?

 

It's a difficult balance to be struck but there's no way in hell that I'd hire an unqualified electrician, so why do it for a bricklayer or carpenter? Until customers start demanding higher standards and provable experience then nothing will change.

 

I often also wonder about insurance. Will an insurer pay out for work done by unqualified people? I heard a story a few years ago about a plumber that burned down a house when soldering pipe. Although his insurance covered him for the use of heat, he wasn't qualified to use it because his ticket had expired. 

[Nickfromwales]

27 minutes ago, SteeVeeDee said:

 

Pointless looking at qualifications? Get a grip of yourself.

 

An unqualified person looking at previous work by definition doesn't really know what they're looking at.

Similarly, a recommendation from a previous customer or a friend isn't really of much value other than very limited for similar reasons. A reference is only of value if its from someone that is verifiably competent to do so i.e. has a provable qualification. 

 

Gaining a trade qualification is a significant indicator that a tradesman has at least met a minimum standard of knowledge and ability in the past. Unskilled men like to criticise skilled men because they want to deflect from the fact that they were too arrogant to submit to the process and just wanted to get bodging.

 

The vast majority of bad work is done by unskilled men, not those with a trade. Being an apprentice isn't easy and its bloody hard work keeping it going for four or five years. 

I disagree.

 

I’ve met sooooo many who hide behind a qualification they just scraped by to attain.

 

I’ve been next to PH ‘savvy’ and qualified, and beaten them. Load of tosh and supersonic websites.

 

The majority of bad work I’ve seen over the last 20+ years has been by companies or professionals whom the clients then state that they simply cannot believe have let them down, often badly, often with significant cost repercussions.

 

I have a VERY firm grip on myself, thanks the same.

 

I never asked a friend to give a recommendation, never said that I did, only independent, unique clientele who speak the truth, warts and all, which is the best possible reference you’ll ever get or give. End of. Websites with references can be, and sometimes are, engineered or fictional. Trusted trades websites offer a service to remove negative reviews for a fee ffs. Wakey wakey time folks!

 

Nobody sends a professional to seek a reference, where do you see that happening out of curiosity?

 

Feedback from a previous client(s) has won me lots of work, even when they say certain things could have been a bit better but overall the result was positive and the outcome good or great. I’ll take that level of transparency every day of the week with any company or professional.
 

Results are results, and they’ll always speak for themselves.

 

Most BCO’s who visit my jobs spend more time asking about the level of workmanship etc than looking around checking the job over. They see someone who knows what they’re doing within minutes of being on site.

 

17 minutes ago, SteeVeeDee said:

I genuinely don't understand why customers don't ask for proof of qualifications and experience.

They do. And get told a load of Enid. 
 

17 minutes ago, SteeVeeDee said:

there's no way in hell that I'd hire an unqualified electrician, so why do it for a bricklayer or carpenter?

Where had anyone suggested that they do, or that they should do this?!?

 

A mate of mine dipped out of school early and became a bit of a toe rag. Zero quals. Now if I put him and his oak work up against some of the best, he’ll outshine them.
 

Qualifications don’t impress me one bit, being able to do the research, solve problems, work with the client to ascertain their needs/wants/wishes, find solutions to get that end result, and deliver this with pride and passion, wins the day.

 

I only reach out to bonafide designers when a system needs to be compliant and the paper trail needs to be complete, eg anything like electrics, ventilation, fire, structural, and so on.

 

We share very different views on this, but that’s what makes the world go round I guess. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, SBMS said:

One challenge is the builder often takes you to a 'satisfied' customer.  That customer might have been totally hands off, not inspected work, and have no clue as to what issues are lurking in the building fabric...

You can never get away from that, and is where the client must be responsible for doing their own diligence, I’m afraid.

 

Lazy clients will fall foul, simples. 
 

If you don’t know what to ask or what to look at / for, you should be using a consultant from day dot. “Fail to prepare, prepare to fail”, I heard that somewhere   

[SteeVeeDee]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You can never get away from that, and is where the client must be responsible for doing their own diligence, I’m afraid.

 

Lazy clients will fall foul, simples. 
 

If you don’t know what to ask or what to look at / for, you should be using a consultant from day dot. “Fail to prepare, prepare to fail”, I heard that somewhere   

 

Agreed. Private project managers can feel like an extravagance but if they solve problems and keep the project on track then their cost is covered. I've met a couple of bad ones but the majority tend to be pretty good. They stay busy by being professional and getting recommendations so are incentivised that way, rather than backhanders.

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, SteeVeeDee said:

Pointless looking at qualifications? Get a grip of yourself.

 

One of the best builders I know has no formal qualifications but has been in the business for over 40 years.  He is very successful and sought after.  His day starts at 5:00AM and he finishes around 7:00PM as he also has a small farm business.  His literacy is limited but he can read a plan and spec.

[SteeVeeDee]

17 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

One of the best builders I know has no formal qualifications but has been in the business for over 40 years.  He is very successful and sought after.  His day starts at 5:00AM and he finishes around 7:00PM as he also has a small farm business.  His literacy is limited but he can read a plan and spec.

 

Ok, so thats one. There are a variety of reasons why he may be sought after. Define builder. 

[bmj1]

The advice from SBMS above is excellent. And to the point.

 

Having previously terminated two main contractors, I can confirm he's hit all the key points.

 

Do this right and you will be able to cut the builder and protect yourself against any comeback. In fact, if done right, they'll be delighted to be able to walk away with a negotiated settlement that means you can't come after them for damages.

 

If you don't have personal experience in commercial negotiation, maybe think about who you can trust to help you with this meeting (whether a friend or professional). And you want a third party there regardless.

[boxrick]

On 01/08/2025 at 21:40, SBMS said:

Rick -

would strongly advise against this position and sending a letter like this. At this stage your builder is possibly preparing themselves for legal proceedings. In this instance you are absolutely advised to commit as little as possible to written (or even verbal form). 
 

I would advise that you don’t continue with this contractor under any circumstances - and get yourself in a headspace where you’ve accepted you need to find someone else.

reading your contract you can’t unilaterally terminate the contract as there is the provision for remediation.

 

My first course would be to request a without prejudice conversation with your builder. Within this conversation (have a third party present such as your SE, architect or a friend) set out that from your point of view the trust and relationship has degraded to a point of no return and you do not under any circumstances want the builder to continue. Explain that if that isn’t agreeable you will exercise clause 37 and at the builders Cost they will be required to replace all posi rafters and fit them to the satisfaction of your SE. State that Pasquill have advised they are likely not recoverable. This is an expensive exercise for the builder. Others may suggest you try and get them to cover the cost of doing the job right. Personally I wouldn’t trust them anywhere near my site. I would seek a negotiated exit and write off getting any money back.

 

Alternatively, if the builder doesn’t agree I would advise you exercise clause 37 immediately. I doubt that they will remediate within 14 days but if you don’t follow the provisions of your contract your builder can pursue you. 
 

I would advise a letter that is entirely factual, unemotional and succinct if you need to serve a breach notice. I can help draft one if you need. Accept your relationship with your builder is over. 
 

 

Thanks for the advice, my "issue" here is my builder will almost certainly attempt to remediate these issues. See that as a problem or not but I have already tried to terminate him twice with me simply stating he cannot go near my roof and he is like one of those little seeds that sticks to your leg. 

Obviously I have had no help along the way to help me terminate, I am happy to deal with the financial part of this. I would rather him just not continue at this point. 

I don't think he s done a full house build before ( thats clear from my pictures ). So he wants it for his portfolio

 

[saveasteading]

28 minutes ago, boxrick said:

would rather him just not continue at this point

A recognised professional is what you need now. They don't need to look at the contract or money, just inspect the roof and write to say that the work is inept as witness ....etc.  and the building will be unsafe. The work must be remedied by a competent party and they do not believe the current builder is competent.

Along those lines.

Unfortunately I think this may be quite expensive because the consultant us buying into your problem: the builder may sue or lawyers contact them.

 

UNLESS the building inspector does it for you.  Do you have contact?

[saveasteading]

Re taking references. Obv the builder only gives the happy customers so it can be a waste of time.

 

This builder could be a decent chap who means no ill, but is not competent

 

I've met many with no idea how a structure works. So in your case he has joined the bits up, and made it fit.

 

If he is insisting on putting it right, then you would need a formal proposal and schedule from a professional expert engaged by him,  and very soon.

[Kelvin]

54 minutes ago, boxrick said:

Thanks for the advice, my "issue" here is my builder will almost certainly attempt to remediate these issues. See that as a problem or not but I have already tried to terminate him twice with me simply stating he cannot go near my roof and he is like one of those little seeds that sticks to your leg. 

Obviously I have had no help along the way to help me terminate, I am happy to deal with the financial part of this. I would rather him just not continue at this point. 

I don't think he s done a full house build before ( thats clear from my pictures ). So he wants it for his portfolio

 

It’s your site you tell him the contract is terminated in writing and verbally and he mustn’t set foot on the plot. If he has stuff left there gather it up and place at the entrance and agree  a time to come and collect it. Can you secure the site? 

[Tony L]

There are different ways of dealing with this problem & each way carries different risks.

 

If it were me, I’d be saying he’s broken the contract because he didn’t, “provide a high quality outcome for the works”, (that’s a quote from your contract), so there’s no reason the client should be bound by a contract that the builder broke; he’s off the job, & he’s not getting any more money.

 

If you want to carry on fulfilling your side of the contract, so the builder has no opportunity to say you’re in the wrong then you need to write to him, if you haven’t done so already, to tell him the work is no good.  Just two or three sentences should be enough.  Do not mention anything he’s done wrong other than the Posis & the steels – you don’t want to give him the opportunity to argue, at length, over some trivial matter.

 

 It’s highly unlikely he will order, pay for, & wait for delivery of a full set of Posis & steels, & have them all installed & looking as they should do, within 14 days of receipt of your email/letter.  & if he tells you he's going to fix his work, as @saveasteading says, you should insist on a formal proposal for a schedule of the remedial works, so he'll have that to squeeze into his 14 days timeframe as well.

 

Also, your contract says mediation should take place.  Your contract isn’t specific about the kind of mediation, so this would just need to be a short meeting with you, the builder & a mediator – it doesn’t even matter if the builder chooses the mediator – you don’t have to agree to the mediator’s suggestions.  So if you want to still be seen to be upholding your contractual obligations (even though he broke the contract), email him to offer mediation, at your site, one day this week.

 

As I say, if it were me, I'd not be even giving him these opportunities.

[bmj1]

I would personally be terminating with cause, as the builder's breach is so severe (cite relevant clauses around workmanship) and it clearly cannot be rectified by them as they demonstrably lack the expertise. I would be focussing on the fact they have been negligent on multiple occasions, and that they have therefore grossly breached the contract, and this is the only reasonable avenue open to you.

 

I'd find a friendly and qualified professional to draft a firm witness statement, and attach this also.

 

A meeting with the builder and my expert, on site, to take them through it, and advise I am willing to waive my claim for damages (quantify this, and don't hold back) if they sign a final settlement, I think is the approach I would take. That way, they'll see the settlement as a win, and won't need to worry about you litigating.

 

This needs planning out carefully, hence my suggestion you want someone experienced in commercial negotiation. This could also be your expert.

[bmj1]

Just to add: I've seen this all before. He wants to stay because he hasn't got other work lined up. Tough. Don't make his problem your problem. You need much better than this. Now is your chance to cut ties. You won't regret it.

[SteeVeeDee]

16 minutes ago, boxrick said:

Thanks for the advice, my "issue" here is my builder will almost certainly attempt to remediate these issues. See that as a problem or not but I have already tried to terminate him twice with me simply stating he cannot go near my roof and he is like one of those little seeds that sticks to your leg. 

Obviously I have had no help along the way to help me terminate, I am happy to deal with the financial part of this. I would rather him just not continue at this point. 

I don't think he s done a full house build before ( thats clear from my pictures ). So he wants it for his portfolio

 

 

Who's house is this? His or yours? 

You've hired someone patently unqualified for the job so you need to, at last, start thinking clearly and realistically.

Was the structural engineer from him or you? If so ask him/her if the know a lawyer. 

Otherwise you could possibly contact the RICS or CIOB.

I'm sorry this has happened to you but its horribly common.

Do not let this person continue works but do so within your legal obligations.

My guess would be that they will not have the correct health and safety policies, insurance, etc. There may be pincer movements you can do that arent't straight ahead.