Ceiling Deflection

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

Do you think pipe work will need playing with?

Will be dependant on what is tapped (tee'd) off the rising cold mains, before it gets to the attic. Ideally the stockcock will supply the outside tap and cold water appliances, then you'll have a second non return (single check) valve to keep the stored energy in the accumulator for use with bathing etc only, as you don't want things like the washing machine and outside tap using the stored energy and then the shower being starved when you need to use it.

 

All the info you've provided says to me an acc'r on its own will be plenty enough additional potential here, to provide short-sharp boost for showering, and to bridge the times of less than brilliant pressure / flow from the network.    

[Wolfman310]

So the SE came and was rather interesting chat. 
 

waiting for them to confirm but their initial thoughts were.
1. They think the ceiling down and the joists that are deflected need cutting out as they are done with and will never have a flat roof again without. 
2. if you are doing that then they thought the new frame should go from internal wall to internal wall and ignore the wall plate as opposite the wall plate is only the timber with the joist hanger and the spans is large for it to sit on was initial impression. 

The existing joists can then connect back in to the new frame which will support the ceiling. 
 

 

not explained very well but will share the drawing when I get it. 

 

I think Oso were thinking something to be knocked up quick, but with a ceiling down and new frame, joists being cut and connected to rectify the issues is what it is. 
 

I can answer the question, Nick. Nothing connects as the water comes in from the bathroom (same one with the ceiling issue) 

 

it has the toilet on it only before it gets to the loft. 

the outside tap is fed off the pipe in the kitchen sink area that feeds the dishwasher/washing machine and isn’t separate, nor are the appliances so the kitchen will need a rejig by the sounds of it. 

[Wolfman310]

So. Way of an update. 
 

Oso we’re just sitting on it so two emails later to the CEO and they have replied that in essence it is the insurance problem from the sub contractor and he will have to deal with it as they won’t. 
 

Even though they agreed in email to pay for and refund the structural Engineer report of £900 that has been reneged on also. 
 

Stay away from Oso. They have no morals and will take no ownership of their negligence. 

[Nickfromwales]

If it’s them that invoiced, then it’s them you will form the claim against. 
 

Their insurers will investigate, and then pursue the 3rd party subby to recover the losses from their insurers. 
 

They are the ones who took the money, so they are the ones responsible, entirely.

 

Tossers.

 

Time to get a claim together, and speak to your own insurers to see how to proceed. 

[SimonD]

Shocking thread. And shocking they think they can wash their hands of it through their subby. I'd love to see a judge's face when they try to say it's nothing to do with them to fix it when they happily took your money and subbed it out without your knowledge or agreement.

 

It's all down to them and they know it's going to be expensive as the work looks like a total bag of shite. The cylinder isn't even fully supported and they've only used chipboard - great structural support when that gets soggy. 

 

I also have to say your boiler shouldn't be up there and it should have been installed with proper loft boards across the access area as a minimum to allow for safe servicing and maintenance.

 

The sad thing about these sorts of things is my sister had an issue with a window company who dragged their feet as much as they could and it took 6 years and a court appearance (and the company didn't even turn up) to get the situation resolved. It wasn't just the company but also their lawyers that were scumbags.

 

I've been burned before and it's a horrible experience - you have my sympathies.

 

Hope you have legal insurance or some access to legal advice?

[Nickfromwales]

9 minutes ago, SimonD said:

I also have to say your boiler shouldn't be up there and it should have been installed with proper loft boards across the access area as a minimum to allow for safe servicing and maintenance.

Boiler is fine up there, as long as all pipework lagged and a frost stat is installed (or OEM).

 

It’s better inside the heated envelope, all of this is, but if you want/need space and are happy to compromise then “up it goes”.   

 

A fixed ladder, fixed flooring and lighting is required for access and maintenance etc. 

[SimonD]

18 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Boiler is fine up there, as long as all pipework lagged and a frost stat is installed (or OEM).

 

I disagree with you there Nick. Gas Safe updated its technical requirments back in 2024 and they read as follows:

 

Access and lighting
The homeowner should provide measures as a minimum for their own safety and so that gas engineers can work in a safe environment. There should be a permanent means of safe access to the appliance. For example, this could be a permanently fixed retractable ladder to enter and exit the loft, with a safety guard around the loft access, which should be secured to the building’s fabric. The strength and design of the ladder should be such as to maintain safety. There should also be adequate fixed lighting.

The flooring area from the loft access to the boiler should be sufficient to allow access for normal use, servicing and maintenance, and should be extended to under and around the boiler. Consideration shall be given to a guard in order to prevent contact between stored articles and the boiler, its flue and pipework.

If the floor is of combustible material and supports the boiler, a non-combustible insulating base at least 12mm thick should be directly under the boiler.

The chosen location in the loft/roof space must be able to support the boiler’s weight once filled with water.

 

https://registeredgasengineer.co.uk/technical/boilers-in-loft-spaces/

 

If a customer asked me to service or repair that boiler, I wouldn't go up there. It's a completely unsafe working space. Now, I've worked on boilers in pretty awkward lofts, taken a few and out & replaced one or two in the space, so I don't always insist on all the safety guards etc. but I do insist on proper boarding so I don't have to balance on joist or loose boards randomly chuck on the floor.

[Nickfromwales]

41 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

A fixed ladder, fixed flooring and lighting is required for access and maintenance etc. 

erm.................?

[SimonD]

 

43 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

A fixed ladder, fixed flooring and lighting is required for access and maintenance etc. 

 

41 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

erm.................?

 

That's what I said too. And if that's not there, the boiler shouldn't be up there - it's not safe, so it's not fine to be there. And regardless of this, I think it's poor practise to put boilers in the loft full stop. 

 

Would you have installed it like that and would you work on it like that? I'll bet you a pint or two you wouldn't...😜

[Wolfman310]

6 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

If it’s them that invoiced, then it’s them you will form the claim against. 
 

Their insurers will investigate, and then pursue the 3rd party subby to recover the losses from their insurers. 
 

They are the ones who took the money, so they are the ones responsible, entirely.

 

Tossers.

 

Time to get a claim together, and speak to your own insurers to see how to proceed. 

I spoke to them on the phone and they do now still intend to refund the structural engineer cost but can’t say when. Believe it when I see it thought as they said in email they would pay reasonable costs to rectify the situation. 
 

Fascinatingly they don’t really care they are responsible, even told them legally it is their problem but they don’t want the problem so they want to get rid of it. Even when told I don’t agree to that they just think that is what they are doing. What is shocking is that the health and safety manager, delegated by the CEO has made the call. 

 

just waiting for a call back from my legal support, but have drafted a letter for small claims court for notice of pre action. I doubt that will do anything mind you as they seem to care little about law. 
 

Avoiding OSO would be the best bit of advice I can give to anyone as they could have taken ownership and come out of this looking reasonably well, but they went the other route. 

[Wolfman310]

2 hours ago, SimonD said:

Shocking thread. And shocking they think they can wash their hands of it through their subby. I'd love to see a judge's face when they try to say it's nothing to do with them to fix it when they happily took your money and subbed it out without your knowledge or agreement.

 

It's all down to them and they know it's going to be expensive as the work looks like a total bag of shite. The cylinder isn't even fully supported and they've only used chipboard - great structural support when that gets soggy. 

 

I also have to say your boiler shouldn't be up there and it should have been installed with proper loft boards across the access area as a minimum to allow for safe servicing and maintenance.

 

The sad thing about these sorts of things is my sister had an issue with a window company who dragged their feet as much as they could and it took 6 years and a court appearance (and the company didn't even turn up) to get the situation resolved. It wasn't just the company but also their lawyers that were scumbags.

 

I've been burned before and it's a horrible experience - you have my sympathies.

 

Hope you have legal insurance or some access to legal advice?

Thanks, Sadly you’re right, really is shocking. The installation, how they have acted, appalling. 
 

The old cylinder was in the loft, the old boiler in a cold outhouse.  Within the main bungalow no ready space for either really hence why cylinder left in loft and boiler accompanying it. 
 

it has a built in drop down ladder and lighting, though access really probably should be better, some boards are around and to the boiler but not to the cylinder. 
 

I have access to legal advice through work, my union and my insurance. 

[Wolfman310]

29 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

 

. 

 

Would you have installed it like that and would you work on it like that? I'll bet you a pint or two you wouldn't...😜

Nick is competent don’t forget, the shower I have had aren’t. 😂
 

we all need a Nick from wales in our life! 

[SimonD]

1 hour ago, Wolfman310 said:

Nick is competent don’t forget, the shower I have had aren’t. 😂
 

we all need a Nick from wales in our life! 

 

I know he is and that we do, that's why I'm pulling his leg a bit 😊...just to highlight that the boiler is part of the overall mess up there and isn't just fine.

 

The last installation I did in a loft was actually to put in a UVC a few months ago and I spent 2.5 days building a completely new raised platform to 1, allow for very thick insulation upgrade over the existing joists, and 2, provide a proper solid, wide and safe access to the new cylinder from the loft hatch, 3, properly distribute the new loads across a wide area of the existing joists - the first part of the platform next to where the cylinder was to sit was anchored to the wall with a wall plate too. The platform was built with osb floor panels and with an additional layer of plywood under the cylinder. Then it had proper lighting and all wiring and plumbing was completely out of the way to remove any trip hazards and all fully lagged. I thought I had a photo but can't seem to find it unfortunately.

 

I tend to avoid loft installations like the plague but if there's absolutely no other choice then it's got to be properly boarded with safe access and I quote for this work or they can have someone else do it - otherwise I'm off tbh.

 

The last boiler installation job I did involving a loft was to take a bloody combi out of the loft and reinstate a system boiler and UVC so the customers could have proper showers for the first time in 8 years having previously been conned into how good combi would be - especially when it sprang a leak in the hot water heat exchanger and flooded the house over 3 floors.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, SimonD said:

 

 

 

That's what I said too. And if that's not there, the boiler shouldn't be up there - it's not safe, so it's not fine to be there. And regardless of this, I think it's poor practise to put boilers in the loft full stop. 

 

Would you have installed it like that and would you work on it like that? I'll bet you a pint or two you wouldn't...😜

Never bet beer, because if you do, in 25 minutes time, you’ll have a string of pics of me, laying on my back, changing the diverter valve by touch alone. 
 

And yes. We’re saying the same thing. I am a fan of putting all that stuff up in the attic though, if it means life can become more practical below it.

 

Not an A for efficiency, but some are happy to trade that for living space, which I’d take every day of the week. 

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

Nick is competent don’t forget, the shower I have had aren’t. 😂
 

we all need a Nick from wales in our life! 

My wife says different lol. 

[Andehh]

Money Claim online time OP, with some copies of the paperwork trail to date, the SE assessment and quotes for rectification from another reputable company.

 

Then let the system resolve, and I'd expect OSO to buckle at the last minute and pay out. 

[Nickfromwales]

21 minutes ago, Andehh said:

Money Claim online time OP, with some copies of the paperwork trail to date, the SE assessment and quotes for rectification from another reputable company.

 

Then let the system resolve, and I'd expect OSO to buckle at the last minute and pay out. 

Up to £10k with that mechanism yes? 

[Andehh]

I thought it was £5k, but it's been several years since I went down the route!

 

Inevitably with a case like OP's, I expect them to wait till last minute then accept their internal legal teams advice and pay up the invoices and quotes put to them, and wash their hands of it all. 

[Andehh]

Also from memory Money Claim works on "balence of probabilities", so OP has a fair case with everything said to date. Just needs to be well laid out, and structured accordingly.

 

I don't suppose you paid any of it on a credit card!? That's an even easier route, and I banked £9k when an air con company went bust on me mid job. Was even able to claim 'making good' and supportive rectification work from a posher company who came in to resolve it all.  

[bmj1]

Upper limit is now £99,999 for MCOL.

 

Fees ratchet up as you claim for more.

 

Schedule here: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees