ASHP installation - great new invention

[JohnMo]

Thought the title may drag you in - this is the rubbish installers see, hail the buffer makes your life simple - not the home owner that pays the bills.

 

https://www.installeronline.co.uk/heating/hewer-launches-under-cylinder-solution-to-support-heat-pump-installations/

[SteamyTea]

Had a quick skim though, seems like a reasonable idea.

Not idea how it will affect overall SCoP.

[sharpener]

34 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not idea how it will affect overall SCoP.

 

Will make it worse. 

 

The cutaway view here shows the main active component is a standard plate HX, and from the description is it clear this is used to provide separation between the HP loop and a pre-existing heating system.

 

Assuming there is the typical dT of 5 C between primary and secondary of the HX it means the HP will have to run 5C hotter for the same heat delivered to the home. It will not reduce the need for larger emitters in many instances, in fact it will make this more of a requirement to get reasonable CoPs. Their video is misleading about this.

 

I don't see why they are targeting social housing in particular, or emphasise the saving on glycol. Anti-freeze valves are a readily available alternative.

 

The remote controllable backup heater is novel but I can't see what form it takes. It does not seem to have a standard immersion heater boss, and if more than 3kW will need a new power supply to the airing cupboard. As it is designed to fit under the HW cylinder it would not appear to avoid the need for a new cyl.

 

I would not have one.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, sharpener said:

I don't see why they are targeting social housing in particular, or emphasise the saving on glycol. Anti-freeze valves are a readily available alternative.

I suspect it is easier to deal with one company that manages a few thousand houses, than a few thousand customers that have 1 house each.

The glycol saving is probably a real saving if it is changed on a regular basis, as it should be.

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Thought the title may drag you in - this is the rubbish installers see, hail the buffer makes your life simple - not the home owner that pays the bills.

 

https://www.installeronline.co.uk/heating/hewer-launches-under-cylinder-solution-to-support-heat-pump-installations/

@johnmo thanks for flagging this. 

 

So its a plate heat exchanger built into a plinth, especially designed to increase householder running costs by perhaps ~15% - 30%, targeted at those least able to afford it and institutional specifiers who haven't got a scooby.  The voiceover to the ad is worth listening to for a laugh.  Apparently the device also means that radiators will not need replacing (in a parallel universe presumably, where the laws of thermodynamics don't apply)

 

Isn't free market capitalism wonderful!

Edited June 4 by JamesPa

[HughF]

If only electricity was 5p/unit all the time - then we could actually get on with this decarbonisation without needing any complicated additional work. 50deg fixed flow temp, separation, on/off stats.

 

Easy.

[JamesPa]

8 hours ago, HughF said:

If only electricity was 5p/unit all the time - then we could actually get on with this decarbonisation without needing any complicated additional work. 50deg fixed flow temp, separation, on/off stats.

 

Easy.

Im presuming this comment is intended to be funny and/or a poke at incompetent installers, in which case well said.

 

If not then i must apologise that i dont understand it, so perhaps you could clarify?

Edited Saturday at 16:12 by JamesPa

[marshian]

45 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Im presuming this comment is intended to be funny and/or a poke at incompetent installers, in which case well said.

 

If not then i must apologise that i dont understand it, so perhaps you could clarify?

 

I thought it was more to do with highlighting that Electricity prices are linked to gas and as a result it's not a level playing field for ASHP or any form of electric heating at 5p per kWh there wouldn't be any need to achieve high efficiency SCOP/COP

[HughF]

15 minutes ago, marshian said:

 

I thought it was more to do with highlighting that Electricity prices are linked to gas and as a result it's not a level playing field for ASHP or any form of electric heating at 5p per kWh there wouldn't be any need to achieve high efficiency SCOP/COP

This….

 

I raised the issue at installer show last year at the heat geek theatre talks. Because of the fact that we have the most expensive electricity in Europe (pretty much) , we’re scop chasing. If we could settle for an easy 2.8 and chuck em in like a boiler, it would make things much easier.

[JohnMo]

1 minute ago, HughF said:

This….

 

I raised the issue at installer show last year at the heat geek theatre talks. Because of the fact that we have the most expensive electricity in Europe (pretty much) , we’re scop chasing. If we could settle for an easy 2.8 and chuck em in like a boiler, it would make things much easier.

Yep, no one bats an eye lid at some of the p!ss poor gas boiler installations, that run 70 degs, zoned to death on S or Y plan, and spend their life short cycling. But gas is 5 to 6p per kWh, so no one notices or cares.

 

Electric at close to 4 to 5 times the cost of gas, can double the running costs, if not done well. Half the price of electricity run R290 at 60+ if you want and you still have cost parity. Do a good install and people would be be paying a premium to jump to the front of the queue. Then no need for tax payers money lining the grant harvest companies

[marshian]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Yep, no one bats an eye lid at some of the p!ss poor gas boiler installations, that run 70 degs, zoned to death on S or Y plan, and spend their life short cycling. But gas is 5 to 6p per kWh, so no one notices or cares.

 

And that's been the case since condescending gas boilers were made mandatory for all replacements and new houses - the UK should have been embracing low temp heating and customers seeing savings from condensing - except the new boilers were set up at the same flow temps as the previous boilers

 

Don't get me started on the combi epidemic where oversized boilers were thrown on walls and were sized for HW demand not CH

 

Only 19% of my annual gas consumption is HW the rest is CH (OK just under 1% is cooking but that's really insignificant)

[SteamyTea]

10 hours ago, marshian said:

Only 19% of my annual gas consumption is HW the rest is CH

Last year, I was the other way around.  80% of my usage is DHW.  2184 kWh.

Either I was very cold, or you don't wash enough.

 

[saveasteading]

10 hours ago, marshian said:

condescending gas boilers

That's cheered me up.

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

very cold, or you don't wash enough.

 

Or both

[JamesPa]

14 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Yep, no one bats an eye lid at some of the p!ss poor gas boiler installations, that run 70 degs, zoned to death on S or Y plan, and spend their life short cycling. But gas is 5 to 6p per kWh, so no one notices or cares.

 

Electric at close to 4 to 5 times the cost of gas, can double the running costs, if not done well. Half the price of electricity run R290 at 60+ if you want and you still have cost parity. Do a good install and people would be be paying a premium to jump to the front of the queue. Then no need for tax payers money lining the grant harvest companies

 

To halve the price of electricity would, at present, require taxpayer subsidy @JohnMo - it doesn't remove the subsidy it just shifts it. And where is the evidence that our electricity prices are 'the most expensive in Europe', thats certainly not the case if you believe Eurostat.

 

@marshian is right.  Why are we even talking about tolerating unnecessarily poor installations when its SO simple, in most cases, to do it right:  NO system separation, RIGHT size, design for 45C or less, NO external controls other than TRVs in the bedrooms if you insist (with, if you wish, Homely/Havenwise or the like specifically designed for heat pumps), adjust the WC properly = SCOP 4, job done!  If you also tell the homeowner to get a sensible tariff, they will likely be quids in. 

 

Surely we aren't going to use the fact that we totally messed up condensing boilers as an excuse to mess up heat pumps (and then deflect the blame from industry failings to the government), or are some parts of the the industry (I say some parts because there are clearly a fair few good installers out there) really that piss-poor, that lacking in conscience and that unable to learn from its own mistakes?  If the MCS closed shop cant make it happen right, scrap them and let competition sort it out.

 

I do agree that a readjustment of gas vs electricity prices is needed, but please lets not use that as an excuse to tolerate continued industry incompetence.  Time for  the industry and its acolytes to cut the crap excuses and get its house in order.  Early mistakes are excusable but domestic heat pumps have now been around for long enough for the 'professionals' to work out what to do, so JFDI or get out.

Edited Sunday at 08:02 by JamesPa

[SteamyTea]

14 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Time for  the industry and its acolytes to cut the crap excuses and get its house in order.

The government is about to dish out £600m on training.

Personally I think the training needs to go to decision makers i.e company owners.  That is where the real problems are.  A youngster is not going to convince their time served boss that they are wankers who are not willing to change work practices.

[JamesPa]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The government is about to dish out £600m on training.

Personally I think the training needs to go to decision makers i.e company owners.  That is where the real problems are.  A youngster is not going to convince their time served boss that they are wankers who are not willing to change work practices.

Ohh .. I remember having to do that - convince my time served boss that he needed to change work practices. 

 

Various occasions come to mind, but most memorably the novel idea that staff (in a technology company!) should be offered computers so that they didn't have to write long articles out by hand (and literally 'cut' and 'paste' when they wanted to revise), all for a secretary to type.  It probably didn't help that he was in a relationship with the secretary!

Edited Sunday at 08:26 by JamesPa

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

It probably didn't help that he was in a relationship with the secretary

You need to listen to yesterday's afternoon play.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002dz0j

 

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Why are we even talking about tolerating unnecessarily poor installations

If we want to move away from fossil fuels, it's not just about doing the right thing. No one is saying a poor insulation, just one that can run at a higher temperature whilst not having a hideous running cost.

 

Currently the government gives a grant of £7500, many will pay a huge additional chuck of money on top of that to get a heat pump installed, so it runs at low flow temperature. But will then have to pay additional funds (many thousands) towards the install. So you may save a little on gas price, but the price overall paid for near parity on running costs is huge. ASHP are a rich persons game, the normal person will turn around and say how much - install a new combi please.

 

We need the opposite mind set.

 

30 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

SO simple

On paper, but many houses need circulation pipes, radiators replaced, 

 

31 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

to do it right:  NO system separation, RIGHT size, design for 45C or less, NO external controls other than TRVs in the bedrooms

With a lower electric price, why wouldn't all the above stay in place, except 45 Deg. The lower unit cost allows the 45 degs to become higher, you can run a wider dT on heat pump and still have tolerable running costs. You still run WC but it's only the coldest days when flow temp is high. Your average 7 Deg winter day you may be flowing high 30 low 40s. You get a heat pump installed, but you not having to install a new heating system, just a different heat source.

[JohnMo]

6 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

secretary

Or the typing pool that all got sacked (sorry made redundant)

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

10 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

secretary

Or the typing pool that all got sacked (sorry made redundant)

 

 

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

 

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

SO simple

On paper, but many houses need circulation pipes, radiators replaced, 

My list was the things that (judging by what we hear here and on other forums) generally go wrong and mess up the performance, not a recipe for the whole installation.  Fixing these is simple and my point is - why do we make excuses for the industry and try to shift the blame for the piss-poor performance of some to government, particularly given the farce of the condensing boiler roll out that the industry foisted on us.

 

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

 

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

to do it right:  NO system separation, RIGHT size, design for 45C or less, NO external controls other than TRVs in the bedrooms

With a lower electric price, why wouldn't all the above stay in place, except 45 Deg. The lower unit cost allows the 45 degs to become higher, you can run a wider dT on heat pump and still have tolerable running costs.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

We need the opposite mind set.

 

 

 

Completely agree.  In fact I have long advocated engineering a modest reduction in the electricity/gas price ratio so that designing for (eg) 55C is possible from a running cost standpoint, and still offering a 45C design as a value-add cost saving upgrade.  I have also long advocated reusing existing DHW tanks where there is one (again offering a new tank as a value add upgrade), NOT needlessly replacing pipework and generally simplifying rather than insisting on the gold plated (but sadly not always gold standard) approach we currently have.  Finally I have long advocated allowing unvented DHW tanks heated by ASHPs and with an external (not internal) element to have external protection instead of the D1/D2 vent arrangement, a change in practice (not regulation - this can be done within existing rules) which would cut half a day or more off an installation in many cases. 

 

These changes alone could significantly reduce install time and disruption, with value added upgrades offered if the householder wants them,  However I have been consistently shouted down on all of these ideas, with few practical alternative ones proposed.

 

However to achieve 5p/kWh (suggested upthread) is unrealistic in terms of the subsidy it requires, and unnecessary.  Perhaps a good compromise might be to (a) shift the policy costs from electricity to gas (its madness that electricity users pay for green policies) and (b) offer a limited subsidy for say 10 years for electricity consumed for heating by ashp (maybe instead of the grant).  The risk of course is that just encourages the industry to deliver installations that perform even more poorly.  That fundamental still needs fixing. not excusing, IMHO.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 09:32 by JamesPa

[marshian]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Last year, I was the other way around.  80% of my usage is DHW.  2184 kWh.

Either I was very cold, or you don't wash enough.

 

Blimey - I reckon you were cold - I think 2 showers a day (bath once a week) is enough for anyone.......

 

2 people 1815 kWh per year for HW usage

Edited Sunday at 09:11 by marshian
Number matter - units matter more

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, marshian said:

I think 2 showers a day (bath once a week) is enough for anyone

A daily wallow is my luxury.

Along with driving, coffees out and general time wasting.