Structural warranty company dilemma

[Amateur bob]

i heard a lot of good reviews about proteck online and signed up with them online for their structural warranty, the house is now being built and a surveyor came up to do his first inspection, he then asked for the name of the principal designer or architect, i said their wasnt one

 

this is now causing an issue as theyre saying they need an architect to sign something to say they stand on the design etc and any defects in the future so that ifi claim off protek they can then sue the architect, is this really how it works?

 

a friend in the housing trade did all my drawings and got it all passed through the building warrant etc but hes no insurance for this type of thing and rightly doesnt want sued, is there any way round such a dilemma? ive paid £3400 for this

 

thanks

[SBMS]

2 hours ago, Amateur bob said:

i heard a lot of good reviews about proteck online and signed up with them online for their structural warranty, the house is now being built and a surveyor came up to do his first inspection, he then asked for the name of the principal designer or architect, i said their wasnt one

 

this is now causing an issue as theyre saying they need an architect to sign something to say they stand on the design etc and any defects in the future so that ifi claim off protek they can then sue the architect, is this really how it works?

 

a friend in the housing trade did all my drawings and got it all passed through the building warrant etc but hes no insurance for this type of thing and rightly doesnt want sued, is there any way round such a dilemma? ive paid £3400 for this

 

thanks

Did your building control not ask who was acting as principal designer for building control?

[Mr Punter]

You need a suitably qualified professional with professional indemnity insurance to design the structure.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> is this really how it works?

 

You might be forgiven for thinking that the insurance company will do everything in its power to avoid paying out. No?

[SBMS]

4 hours ago, Amateur bob said:

claim off protek they can then sue the architect, is this really how it works?

Latent defect warranty providers can look to hold architects liable if the building was improperly designed. Don’t forget that a structural warranty is primarily an insurance policy so typically your warranty underwriter would look to negotiate directly with your architects professional indemnity insurer to settle. 
 

We used self build zone and they also asked for the name of the architect/principal designer. I’m not sure whether this was so that they could ‘sue’ them further on down the line, but I suspect it was more of a means for them to assess the risk of the project in quoting a premium or deciding whether to provider cover or not. 

 

What I would say is that if protek Didn’t make clear they required this up front you might be able to cancel the policy and get a refund but that wouldn’t help if you actually need the policy for an onward or current mortgage. 
 

Also - am surprised your BCO didn’t pick up that you don’t have a building regs principal designer. Ours asked for detail on who they were as this is a requirement of building control now in England. 

[Amateur bob]

11 hours ago, SBMS said:

Did your building control not ask who was acting as principal designer for building control?

a structural warranty company signed off on drawings its more for getting a person thats liable so they can sue them if i make a claim against protek by the sounds of things

[Amateur bob]

11 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

You need a suitably qualified professional with professional indemnity insurance to design the structure.

this is the issue the drawings were done by a friend in the industry who knew wat he was doing and had the software, then passed onto a structural engineer who did the detailed drawings for the building warrant stage, do you think the structural engineer might be able to help sign something here for the protek guys?

[Amateur bob]

9 hours ago, SBMS said:

Latent defect warranty providers can look to hold architects liable if the building was improperly designed. Don’t forget that a structural warranty is primarily an insurance policy so typically your warranty underwriter would look to negotiate directly with your architects professional indemnity insurer to settle. 
 

We used self build zone and they also asked for the name of the architect/principal designer. I’m not sure whether this was so that they could ‘sue’ them further on down the line, but I suspect it was more of a means for them to assess the risk of the project in quoting a premium or deciding whether to provider cover or not. 

 

What I would say is that if protek Didn’t make clear they required this up front you might be able to cancel the policy and get a refund but that wouldn’t help if you actually need the policy for an onward or current mortgage. 
 

Also - am surprised your BCO didn’t pick up that you don’t have a building regs principal designer. Ours asked for detail on who they were as this is a requirement of building control now in England. 

regarding BCO i did technically have a principle designer who had the software and did the drawings but he doesnt have professional indemnity insurance

[EdHat]

How are you getting on with this?

 

I've done my own drawings and am currently trying to get the self-build mortgage sorted. The lender has said i must have a Warranty, not Professional Consultants Certificate (PCC), because I've done my own drawings. The warranty is over twice the price of the PCC. Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway though. 

 

I've made enquires with a few warranty/PCC providers. ABC+ didn't seem to mind when i said I'd done my own drawings so you could try them.

 

If the structural engineer did the detailed design then definitely try them. The principle designer role is concerned with the detailed design for building warrant/regs not planning drawings.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway

 

I'm in the same position - possible to say who wouldn't accept that setup?

[Gus Potter]

On 25/03/2025 at 17:46, Amateur bob said:

a friend in the housing trade did all my drawings and got it all passed through the building warrant etc but hes no insurance for this type of thing and rightly doesnt want sued, is there any way round such a dilemma? ive paid £3400 for this

Hi bob.

 

Hope this lift your spirits a bit. Firstly 99.99% of designers don't set out to do a bad job. Your friend has probably gone the extra mile with the details so there is probably some value in that. Also, if you have issues during the build your friend may become your best friend (if not already) as they will often be "on tap" so to speak and that, even in itself, could easily offset any money you have paid.

 

On 25/03/2025 at 20:45, Mr Punter said:

You need a suitably qualified professional with professional indemnity insurance to design the structure.

In the UK (in terms of the building regs) it boils down to your design being undertaken by someone who is competent. In Bob's case his friend is probably highly competent. They can demonstrate this by producing drawings to a high standard, producing drawing details that identify critical parts of the design [could be structural (SE stuff) or weathering details (Architect stuff)] that lets someone who is checking the design see that there is competency in play. 

 

The crux of the matter is how warranty providers take a view on the risk they are underwriting.

 

On 26/03/2025 at 08:25, Amateur bob said:

then passed onto a structural engineer who did the detailed drawings for the building warrant stage, do you think the structural engineer might be able to help sign something here for the protek guys?

Yes, I think your SE will get you sorted.. see below... if you can hang in with my submission and observations..

 

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I'm in the same position - possible to say who wouldn't accept that setup?

To make headway here I go back go back first.... excuse the spelling and grammer folks.. please.

 

I wear two hats. My main hat is the SE hat, the other is my Architectural Designers hat. My professional indemnity insurance premium (if I try and split it out) as an SE is about 4 - 5 times more than when I have my Architectural designers hat on. Each year, to renew my PI insurance, I have to fill in a form that splits up the design work I do into various categories, one of these is "Architectural" design. Now most SE's will allocate a percentage value to this more than zero, it might be only 1% but that covers you in case you inadvertantly stray into say @ETC's world. In my case the % is more but I'm not going to tell you what that is. 

 

In summary @Amateur bob this means that the SE may be able to say..ok.. I'll tack it all together and take the Architectural design liability on... with a few standard caveats. 

 

If you (bob) came to me out of the blue as the SE / Designer I would say ok.. lets have a look at what your warranty provider is asking for and is it reasonable. I would want to know a bit about you also. 

 

We would have a chat.. you want me to cover the design under my insurance. I might say,  I'll cover you and our contract is between us only.. can you live with that, you may say yes and, that gets recorded. If it turns out later that you sold the house on promptly and I get some random chancer sending me notification of claim, then in the first instance I'll tell you to take a hike. If you want to do this selling on (developing) then you need a collateral warranty and that comes at a cost, its often not a crippling amount but what I don't want is some hard arsed chancer with a tame laywer running up my clock to get a few quid out of me. In other words if you want your pals SE to consider you then you need full transparency.

 

Now for all. One of the privileges of being an SE is that the warranty providers know that we carry lots of insurance. If things go wrong then we are often the first target, they go for the low hanging fruit. Often other folk.. your contractor might have gone bust.. SE's and Architect's can be the last folk standing so we get the blame for everything.

 

The easy way as others have said is to think about this in terms of gambling and bookmakers. Bookmakers and warranty providers will often lay off the risk... but they need the business. They can lay off the risk to the self builder and make conditions.. but then too many and the self builder will go elsewhere. There are plenty folk that do their own drawings.. or get drawings from sub contractors.

 

For me I provide to my Clients a copy of my professional indemnity insurance on request. If the warranty provider asks for detail I can provide a bit of that also.. enough to show that my insurer's are actually covering the things I have designed. For example.. it's not worth my while designing swimming pools.. I have no cover for that. When I was younger I designed stuff for the Nuclear Industry.. but my employer held the cover..the premiums were I understand large.. but not as large as you think..say 50% more! story for another day.

 

What I won't and are not allowed to do by my insurer to do is to provide you with chapter and verse of the forms I fill in each year. This has no bearing.. it's a private commercial transaction between me, my company and insurer. The warranty providers know the rules so don't let them try and pull the wool over your eyes.

 

Ok to finish on a high note @Amateur bob I have a friend and colleague who was an outstanding award winning Architect but has got to an age where he wants to still keep his hand in.. but just wants to spend more time with his grand kids. To keep up his Architect's registration is a lot of work. I've done his SE designs for a long time. We are starting to change the way we work together where I take on more of the day to day tasks, take on more liability under my PI cover.. BC compliance etc. But he is still competant and see if I get stuck I'm straight on the phone for advice!

 

If you have BC permission and sign off but no other designer that can take help lay off the warranty provider's liability then just send them the cv of your pal, state what the SE has done and what they cover and ask for a quotation. At least that gives you a benchmark. You'll be getting "the computer says no" treatment maybe.. but insurers are there to make money.. like bookmakers.. if there is a bargin to be struck they will do it!

 

 

 

 

 

[Amateur bob]

On 04/04/2025 at 21:21, Gus Potter said:

Hi bob.

 

Hope this lift your spirits a bit. Firstly 99.99% of designers don't set out to do a bad job. Your friend has probably gone the extra mile with the details so there is probably some value in that. Also, if you have issues during the build your friend may become your best friend (if not already) as they will often be "on tap" so to speak and that, even in itself, could easily offset any money you have paid.

 

In the UK (in terms of the building regs) it boils down to your design being undertaken by someone who is competent. In Bob's case his friend is probably highly competent. They can demonstrate this by producing drawings to a high standard, producing drawing details that identify critical parts of the design [could be structural (SE stuff) or weathering details (Architect stuff)] that lets someone who is checking the design see that there is competency in play. 

 

The crux of the matter is how warranty providers take a view on the risk they are underwriting.

 

Yes, I think your SE will get you sorted.. see below... if you can hang in with my submission and observations..

 

To make headway here I go back go back first.... excuse the spelling and grammer folks.. please.

 

I wear two hats. My main hat is the SE hat, the other is my Architectural Designers hat. My professional indemnity insurance premium (if I try and split it out) as an SE is about 4 - 5 times more than when I have my Architectural designers hat on. Each year, to renew my PI insurance, I have to fill in a form that splits up the design work I do into various categories, one of these is "Architectural" design. Now most SE's will allocate a percentage value to this more than zero, it might be only 1% but that covers you in case you inadvertantly stray into say @ETC's world. In my case the % is more but I'm not going to tell you what that is. 

 

In summary @Amateur bob this means that the SE may be able to say..ok.. I'll tack it all together and take the Architectural design liability on... with a few standard caveats. 

 

If you (bob) came to me out of the blue as the SE / Designer I would say ok.. lets have a look at what your warranty provider is asking for and is it reasonable. I would want to know a bit about you also. 

 

We would have a chat.. you want me to cover the design under my insurance. I might say,  I'll cover you and our contract is between us only.. can you live with that, you may say yes and, that gets recorded. If it turns out later that you sold the house on promptly and I get some random chancer sending me notification of claim, then in the first instance I'll tell you to take a hike. If you want to do this selling on (developing) then you need a collateral warranty and that comes at a cost, its often not a crippling amount but what I don't want is some hard arsed chancer with a tame laywer running up my clock to get a few quid out of me. In other words if you want your pals SE to consider you then you need full transparency.

 

Now for all. One of the privileges of being an SE is that the warranty providers know that we carry lots of insurance. If things go wrong then we are often the first target, they go for the low hanging fruit. Often other folk.. your contractor might have gone bust.. SE's and Architect's can be the last folk standing so we get the blame for everything.

 

The easy way as others have said is to think about this in terms of gambling and bookmakers. Bookmakers and warranty providers will often lay off the risk... but they need the business. They can lay off the risk to the self builder and make conditions.. but then too many and the self builder will go elsewhere. There are plenty folk that do their own drawings.. or get drawings from sub contractors.

 

For me I provide to my Clients a copy of my professional indemnity insurance on request. If the warranty provider asks for detail I can provide a bit of that also.. enough to show that my insurer's are actually covering the things I have designed. For example.. it's not worth my while designing swimming pools.. I have no cover for that. When I was younger I designed stuff for the Nuclear Industry.. but my employer held the cover..the premiums were I understand large.. but not as large as you think..say 50% more! story for another day.

 

What I won't and are not allowed to do by my insurer to do is to provide you with chapter and verse of the forms I fill in each year. This has no bearing.. it's a private commercial transaction between me, my company and insurer. The warranty providers know the rules so don't let them try and pull the wool over your eyes.

 

Ok to finish on a high note @Amateur bob I have a friend and colleague who was an outstanding award winning Architect but has got to an age where he wants to still keep his hand in.. but just wants to spend more time with his grand kids. To keep up his Architect's registration is a lot of work. I've done his SE designs for a long time. We are starting to change the way we work together where I take on more of the day to day tasks, take on more liability under my PI cover.. BC compliance etc. But he is still competant and see if I get stuck I'm straight on the phone for advice!

 

If you have BC permission and sign off but no other designer that can take help lay off the warranty provider's liability then just send them the cv of your pal, state what the SE has done and what they cover and ask for a quotation. At least that gives you a benchmark. You'll be getting "the computer says no" treatment maybe.. but insurers are there to make money.. like bookmakers.. if there is a bargin to be struck they will do it!

 

 

 

 

 

good morning Gus thanks for the feedback, i have already paid the protek warranty which was over 3k, when the guy came up from england for inspection of the slab he asked who the principal designer was and i told him my mate who he then phoned up but he had no PII so wasnt able to do it, next i had contacted the SE firm and the guy who inspected the trenches to see if he would take on the role, he said he would check his PII and get back to me that was 2 weeks ago, i tried to phone him on Monday but no reply, are there and structural engineers or architects i could get to look over the drawings and take on the role for a fee perhaps?

[Amateur bob]

On 04/04/2025 at 15:22, EdHat said:

How are you getting on with this?

 

I've done my own drawings and am currently trying to get the self-build mortgage sorted. The lender has said i must have a Warranty, not Professional Consultants Certificate (PCC), because I've done my own drawings. The warranty is over twice the price of the PCC. Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway though. 

 

I've made enquires with a few warranty/PCC providers. ABC+ didn't seem to mind when i said I'd done my own drawings so you could try them.

 

If the structural engineer did the detailed design then definitely try them. The principle designer role is concerned with the detailed design for building warrant/regs not planning drawings.

i contacted the SE 2 weeks ago but not heard back yet, i have a mortgage secured on some farmland to get the house built but ill want to remortgage onto a standard residential mortgage once its done, not many will lend without a structural warranty? i do have a Certificate of Design signed by the structural engineer to say its all designed up to standard would that help?

[Amateur bob]

On 04/04/2025 at 18:05, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway

 

I'm in the same position - possible to say who wouldn't accept that setup?

did you get a structural engineer to do the detailed ones for the building warrant?