Any thoughts on Adia thermal?

[Beelbeebub]

Came across this company/start up. 

 

They make a fairly startling claim - to reduce install time by removing the need for changing rads/pipes etc. 

 

Behind the slightly unbelievable claim they make some good points.... 

 

A large proportion of boiler installs are "distressed" purchases ie boiler breaks down and I need heat and DHW now!  For these circumstances there isn't the option of the long lead times for a survey, changing all the rads, ripping up pipes etc. 

 

If there is a big saving on install time (via their claimed magic box) there will be a saving on install cost which will offset the higher running costs until the system can be brought up to efficiency. This vaguely aligns with my proposal to use the BUS funds to subsidise the heating costs rather than spending lots of money trying (and often failing) to get the system to break even from day 1.

 

Their secret sauce is basically an automatic system balancing device that will provide the desired room temps for the least flow temp whilst respecting things like cycle times and defrost volumes. It also monitors room by room heatloss and radiator performance to recommend which rads you need to upgrade first. 

 

So...... Thoughts? 

 

 

https://www.adiathermal.co.uk/

Edited February 12 by Beelbeebub

[SteamyTea]

So posh TRVs then.

Not so different from what @DamonHD was doing, one radiator at a time.

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

They make a fairly startling claim - to reduce install time by removing the need for changing rads/pipes etc. 

Don't they spread install time over a longer period by identifying which radiators need changing then changing them at a later date? That could be repeated install visits over weeks or months with the attendant disruption of breaking into a working system??

[JamesPa]

I spoke with these guys.  I think the ideas are excellent and it definitely (and uniquely sofaik) has the potential to solve both radiator balancing and flow temp optimization, neither of which installers seem consistently to do properly, for the very good reason that both take days not hours, and the customer won't pay.

 

What I personally think needs work is the deployment strategy.  They talk of being able to determine accurately heat pump and radiator size, but so far as I can tell don't advocate installing prior to the 'main' installation.  If it's installed with the main installation it is too late to do either of these.  It can of course still balance radiators and optimise flow temperature, but it's too late for the design stage.

 

Definitely technology to watch.  I can't personally see how the mass of installers can ever fully optimise radiator balancing and flow temperature, simply because of the elapsed time required, so this technology, or something like it, is essential in my book.

[DamonHD]

I am brewing up to writing an open letter to Ed Miliband and Greg Jackson saying how and why most UK domestic heat pump installs should be doable in a couple of days, such as to catch the distress purchases, and how other countries help make this kind of thing work.  Some of it is not even Adia's claimed cleverness, but such dull stuff as pre-fabricating pipework etc off site to connect in seconds to the existing boiler pipework (they know the boiler brand, and where it is on the wall, so what all the pipes do) and getting pre-auth from the DNO to install one of several ASHP models depending on what the concurrent survey indicates is needed.  Will not make me popular in some quarters, and obvs it's easy for me to claim not doing the work!

[Beelbeebub]

12 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Don't they spread install time over a longer period by identifying which radiators need changing then changing them at a later date? That could be repeated install visits over weeks or months with the attendant disruption of breaking into a working system??

I guess so. 

 

But it also decoupled that work from installing the heat generator. 

 

Doing it all in one is ideal but does (sometimes) require many days of disruption which may not fit into the owners schedule. 

 

It's fine if it's preplanned but for the "shit my boiler has broken down" market that may not be possible and will be a major factor in the heatpump vs boiler decision. 

 

Swapping in a new boiler can be done in a day or two

 

No way you could do the MCS route that fast.

[Beelbeebub]

13 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

So posh TRVs then.

Not so different from what @DamonHD was doing, one radiator at a time.

Not quite. 

 

Trvs are pretty much on/off. The simply turn rads off when the room.gets too hot. Basically happy shopper room zoning. 

 

As I understand it these are used as flow balancers. I assume the balancing valves on the rads will be wound wide open and then these valves will assume that role under the direction of the central brain

 

[Beelbeebub]

11 hours ago, JamesPa said:

I spoke with these guys.  I think the ideas are excellent and it definitely (and uniquely sofaik) has the potential to solve both radiator balancing and flow temp optimization, neither of which installers seem consistently to do properly, for the very good reason that both take days not hours, and the customer won't pay.

 

What I personally think needs work is the deployment strategy.  They talk of being able to determine accurately heat pump and radiator size, but so far as I can tell don't advocate installing prior to the 'main' installation.  If it's installed with the main installation it is too late to do either of these.  It can of course still balance radiators and optimise flow temperature, but it's too late for the design stage.

 

Definitely technology to watch.  I can't personally see how the mass of installers can ever fully optimise radiator balancing and flow temperature, simply because of the elapsed time required, so this technology, or something like it, is essential in my book.

Whilst the system can't magic it's way round physics. If your pipe work or rads are too small then there is nothing it can do.  What I can see it doijng is getting the absolute best out of your existing system. 

 

In a lot of cases that may be enough. At least in the short term. 

 

It would be great is the unit could be plumbed into the existing system in advance and then spend a heating season (or even just a few weeks) working out exactly what HP would need, which rads need upgrading etc. 

 

The other way I could imagine it working is the unit being designed to replace a gas boiler, ie similar footprint, with the flow return pipes exiting the wall via the existing flue hole (unless it's a roof flue obvs). Then outside a temporary HP can be installed. 

 

 

So you boiler breaks down. 

 

You call the installer, who rocks up, sticks this box on the wall instead of your boiler. 

 

The outside the dump their "temporary" HP - one probably slightly oversized. They leave the system for a few weeks whilst it works out exactly what is needed. During this time your box is working out what size you HP needs to be, any rads that might need cha gong etc. The running costs at this time migbt be a bit higher than ideal but it's only temporary, akin to using fan heaters whilst your boiler is being replaced. 

 

When the results are in, you pick you final HP, maybe a different location etc. Then thr installers rock up, take away their temporary HP to be used on another job, and install your final unit and (if wanted) do any rad upgrades indicated. 

[DamonHD]

Taking the emergency out of water heater replacement — and slashing emissions: MCE, an electricity provider for three-dozen communities in Contra Costa, Marin, Napa, and Solano counties [San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US], launched a [Emergency Water Heater Loaner] program in September that offers contractors a $1,500 per-unit cash incentive for the installation of an electric heat pump water heater after the installation of an emergency loaner.

 

The big points here are that (1) a temporary heater is only used if the main job cannot be completed in a couple of days and (2) that the loaner is subsidised.  So the expectation is for a fast replacement, but with a good cheap plan B.

Edited February 13 by DamonHD

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Whilst the system can't magic it's way round physics. If your pipe work or rads are too small then there is nothing it can do.  What I can see it doijng is getting the absolute best out of your existing system. 

 

In a lot of cases that may be enough. At least in the short term. 

Indeed not, and yes respectively

 

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

It would be great is the unit could be plumbed into the existing system in advance and then spend a heating season (or even just a few weeks) working out exactly what HP would need, which rads need upgrading etc. 

 

I agree.  I expressly asked them about this and they said that it is not how they currently intend it to be deployed.  Ultimately of course thats down to an installer and the householder.

 

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

When the results are in, you pick you final HP, maybe a different location etc. Then thr installers rock up, take away their temporary HP to be used on another job, and install your final unit and (if wanted) do any rad upgrades indicated. 

Thats an interesting sequencing and potentially solves the 'boiler broke down' problem.

 

3 hours ago, DamonHD said:

I am brewing up to writing an open letter to Ed Miliband and Greg Jackson saying how and why most UK domestic heat pump installs should be doable in a couple of days, such as to catch the distress purchases, and how other countries help make this kind of thing work.  

I have had similar thoughts. 

 

I think the major challenge is actually the DHW not the heating.  In the end you can swap, in most cases, a boiler for a heat pump with no other changes, turn up the flow temperature to 55/60 or even more, and it will work.  Then change out radiators (of actually necessary) to make it more efficient as and when its convenient.  However if you are replacing a combi with a heat pump, which is the majority distress use case, its not as simple unless there happens to be a very convenient place for the DHW cylinder.

Edited February 13 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Not quite [posh TRVs]

 

Trvs are pretty much on/off. The simply turn rads off when the room.gets too hot. Basically happy shopper room zoning. 

 

As I understand it these are used as flow balancers. I assume the balancing valves on the rads will be wound wide open and then these valves will assume that role under the direction of the central brain

I imagine same hardware, different firmware.  Smart TRVs wind a pin down or up and could clearly be used in 'analogue' form with the appropriate driver.

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

DHW not the heating

All cylinders have immersion heaters. Combi boilers, different set of issues. But heat pump connected a small cylinder heating coil isn't going to be great either, could well dominate what the heat pump is doing, with very long reheat times.

 

The plug in unit only fixes heating, but so does a £50 electric heater or two.  Less faffing about also, do the calcs, fit once not twice. Heating on in 5 mins of arrival. 

[JamesPa]

32 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

The plug in unit only fixes heating, but so does a £50 electric heater or two.  Less faffing about also, do the calcs, fit once not twice. Heating on in 5 mins of arrival. 

Good point!

 

32 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

All cylinders have immersion heaters. Combi boilers, different set of issues. But heat pump connected a small cylinder heating coil isn't going to be great either, could well dominate what the heat pump is doing, with very long reheat times.

For me the combi (in a distress situation) is the one to crack.  I believe that combis represent the majority of installed boilers so this is the majority use case to be addressed.     

[JohnMo]

54 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

combi

First need to identify a location for cylinder. Suitable cylinder should in most circumstances be available. Worst case a night in B&B or hotel or trip to local sports centre or swimming pool for a shower, while cylinder installed to run immersion only.

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

I imagine same hardware, different firmware.  Smart TRVs wind a pin down or up and could clearly be used in 'analogue' form with the appropriate driver.

Yes. Miught be based on the salus auto ones. You need quite accurate positional control which most trv's won't have because thry don't need it. 

 

Ultimately a dedicated flow control valve would be a good thing to have rather than bodging the trv interface. 

 

Once you have the hardware to monitor individual room performance, you migbt as well male use of it throughout the life of the system. It offers the possibility of the control ability of zoning with the efficency of open loop WC

[Beelbeebub]

One option for the combi replacement is to simply have a 10kw instantaneous heater installed in the "box" maybe with a small (15l is I think the upper limit before you get into G3 regs) hot water tank. 

 

Nowhere as efficient but DHW is generally a small component of use. 

 

Wire in a 40A spur to the "boiler" which contains a 10kw instantaneous heater in a 15l vessel, plus the pumps and sensors for Adias fancy hub. The HP supply is taken from that box to the outdoor unit. When hot water is demanded the HP shuts down and the immersion heater kicks in. 

 

So the wall unit is very much a combi replacement but with an outdoor unit connected through the old flue hole (avoids drilling holes in walls - saves time) 

[DamonHD]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

I imagine same hardware, different firmware.  Smart TRVs wind a pin down or up and could clearly be used in 'analogue' form with the appropriate driver.

As the inventor of one of those smart TRVs there is indeed typically only a very limited range over which most valve bases show an analogue response (and sometimes being in it causes undesirable noise), but yes that particular TRV does try to make use of the bit in between on and off where it can.

[Beelbeebub]

33 minutes ago, DamonHD said:

As the inventor of one of those smart TRVs there is indeed typically only a very limited range over which most valve bases show an analogue response (and sometimes being in it causes undesirable noise), but yes that particular TRV does try to make use of the bit in between on and off where it can.

I did once try and use a trv valve to control the temperature of an UFH loop. I couod do it manually by moving the pin in and out on a screw thread. But then I tried using one of those thermal actuators and controlling the power to it in order to control the pin location. 

 

Turns out trying to control the power to control the temperature of the actuator to control the position when your only feedback was temperature downstream....isn't too smart. 😁 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, DamonHD said:

As the inventor of one of those smart TRVs there is indeed typically only a very limited range over which most valve bases show an analogue response

You can get needle valves that have a linear response.

You can get them to respond to just about any curve you want. Used in carburettors a lot, and they meter incredibly well considering.

There are many different designs, some for mass, some for flow, pressure, temperature compensation even.

Engineers are clever like that.

[Beelbeebub]

As you say, there are loads of options. 

 

But the point is they all require work (and thus time and cost) to fit.

 

By using the almost universally fitted TRV interface, the time to fit becomes negligible. We aren't after perfect, linear flow control. Just flow control that is "good enough" 

[MrPotts]

interesting video discussion here……

 

 

[sharpener]

On 13/02/2025 at 09:28, Beelbeebub said:

Trvs are pretty much on/off. The simply turn rads off when the room.gets too hot. Basically happy shopper room zoning. 

 

As I understand it these are used as flow balancers. I assume the balancing valves on the rads will be wound wide open and then these valves will assume that role under the direction of the central brain

 

Have put in many Drayton TRV4s in several houses. They seem to give reasonable analogue control rather than a bang-bang servo and in the steady state end up on a trickle setting.

Also Honeywell Evohome wireless TRVs. These have too many faults to list, but when working can also deliver quite fine control. After the bedroom warms up in the morning you can hear the motors closing the valves in stages, high gear ratio so must only be a fraction of a turn on the valve itself each time.

 

Yes I wondered if they are basically the same as salus autobalance actuators - is the threaded coupling for rad valves and manifold actuators the same?

 

It would be interesting to know how they tackle the problem of UFH and rads requiring different flow temps, which is still continuing to vex me.

 

On 12/02/2025 at 19:52, Beelbeebub said:

Their secret sauce is basically an automatic system balancing device that will provide the desired room temps for the least flow temp whilst respecting things like cycle times and defrost volumes. It also monitors room by room heatloss and radiator performance to recommend which rads you need to upgrade first. 

 

So...... Thoughts? 

 

 

https://www.adiathermal.co.uk/

 

First thought is are they still trading, the web site is very basic, seems to have no clickable links whatever, and refers to taking advance orders for a product launch in Autumn 2024.

[JohnMo]

52 minutes ago, sharpener said:

wondered if they are basically the same as salus autobalance actuators - is the threaded coupling for rad valves and manifold actuators the same?

Threaded bits are the same. Salus actuator has two clip on temp sensors for flow and return. Do may be different.

[Beelbeebub]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

First thought is are they still trading, the web site is very basic, seems to have no clickable links whatever, and refers to taking advance orders for a product launch in Autumn 2024.

They seem to have given a series of recent (last few weeks) interviews on YT and have snagged some more funding. 

[Beelbeebub]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

It would be interesting to know how they tackle the problem of UFH and rads requiring different flow temps, which is still continuing to vex me.

This would be interesting. 

 

I can see a few possibilities. 

 

You could just rely on the standard mixer and pump setup and accept the loss of efficency. The actuators would fit on the standard ufh manifold actuators so it could flow modulate each loop as if it were a radiator. 

 

They could junk the pump and mixer and run directly and either

 

modulate the flow to each loop so the power is appropriate - conceptually there isn't any difference between a UFH loop and a big, high mass radiator. The only caveat would be if the flow temp for radiators is too high to safely use in the UFH loop. 

 

The other option would be to run the ufh as a separate zone from the rads, ie the UFH is open loop at 35C for 30 mins (potentially the rads could also run at that) , then you shut that off and run the rads at 45C for 30 mins and repeat.