Architects, ballooning fees and estimates

[saveasteading]

33 minutes ago, joth said:

we agreed to "freeze" the architect fee at a fixed price 

There are a few matters which  justify a higher price related to cost.

1. Insurance and especially PI are based on turnover.

2. If there is a problem then any compensation might be more.

3. A bigger project has more detailing unless the rooms are simply bigger.

4. If project management is included then a bigger job has more supervision.

5. Does a dearer job have a more demanding client?

 

BUT if it is simply that the spec is higher then only 1,  2  and maybe 5, apply.

I think either it would  be fair to have a cost based on input plus another based on value.

[saveasteading]

58 minutes ago, Rom said:

itll work for others

Yes it might. But starting without trust is not optimal.

[joth]

36 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

There are a few matters which  justify a higher price related to cost.

1. Insurance and especially PI are based on turnover.

2. If there is a problem then any compensation might be more.

3. A bigger project has more detailing unless the rooms are simply bigger.

4. If project management is included then a bigger job has more supervision.

5. Does a dearer job have a more demanding client?

 

BUT if it is simply that the spec is higher then only 1,  2  and maybe 5, apply.

I think either it would  be fair to have a cost based on input plus another based on value.

Absolutely; when we set out selecting an architect we didn't really know the scope of the project (from a modest "passive house inspired" remodel right up to knock down and rebuild)

But by the time we'd completed planning application (in a conservation area), detailed design, BR sign off, and ready to issue tender pack, 99% of the variables you mention had been fixed, so to mind this was the right time to fix pricing. (There was an additional bargaining point, that this was the architect's first certified PH so a portfolio project, and one contractor wanted to whisk us off into a D&B contract, so there was incentive for the architect in having us stick with them. But even without those factors I think it'd still be a good time to fix pricing if it's not been done before then)

 

[Alan Ambrose]

500 m^2 is a pretty big house. If the budget won’t allow right now, then build in phases that can be financed?

[Drellingore]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

500 m^2 is a pretty big house. If the budget won’t allow right now, then build in phases that can be financed?

 

The thread is so long and vibrant that I'm not sure if you're referring to my original post mentioning 441sqm  Assuming you are, the phased approach might be a good one. Our current house is one of a set of identical modern townhouses in a row, and lots of them have been converted to HMOs. If we can do the same, then that basically increases our monthly disposable income by £3,000.

So if we just do the main, timber-framed barn, move out of the current place, convert that into an HMO, increase our income massively, and then convert the second building, it should be much easier financially. I'm sure we'll lose a bit of economy-of-scale, but we don't need the second building to be done right away. Hell, it'll even be useful for storing building materials!

Edited February 27 by Drellingore

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

On 30/01/2025 at 18:23, Drellingore said:

Question 4: anyone ever switched architect between planning and technical design?

We did exactly this. We were really nervous about doing so, but when we found that we could get the same building regs and construction drawings and Principal Designer role covered for 25% of the architect's %-based RIBA fee, that really focussed my mind. I have maintained ok relations with the architect, and explained that it was a financially-driven decision. I've had to make some similarly tough decisions with other contractors and their first response is to come back with some offer to review the scope and fees to see how they could make it work. Personally I prepare myself for this and I don't make those decisions to drive a deal - if I've made my mind up, then I've done all the analysis beforehand, and won't be swayed.

 

As for the estimated build cost, we have then had the same experience in finding a builder - some of them talk more about the price per sqm than the challenges and specifics of the build. For me that's a red flag, and I weeded them out early.

 

I'm of mixed views on QS - we paid £1k(! - and that was only 50% of some quotes), yet when it came back, the estimates for some of the entries were WAY out from contracts I had already set up, such as glazing. The utility of it was to give me a really comprehensive breakdown of items and takeoff (area required for each item), but as for the cost, I've really taken it with a great big pinch of salt.

 

I can also relate to the issue of asking for a design based on a budget of £x and then finding that the average per sqm costs (even based on when we started) would never have been achievable for our budget. It really did frustrate me. This was another reason why I lost no sleep on my decision to go elsewhere for the build phase.

 

For what it's worth, I went with 'Houseplansdirect' for my tech drawings (they're not local to me but have been very good and I don't regret my decision at all). There are plenty of architectural design firms around - standard rule applies, always tender for more than one supplier.

 

I'm happy to share blank templates (I only logged on to start working out how best to do a blog on here, but I could relate to this post).

 

Good luck.

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, ETC said:

For example an architect does a door or window schedule - the sizes are specified and the material but there could be thousands of pounds difference in cost from a supplier - and you end up paying a premium just because you picked an expensive product.

Not sure what you are saying.

Are you saying that a fee percentage based on price is better, or an initial fixed fee is better.

(It has been a long, and stressful week for me this week, so may be being dumb)

[ETC]

What I'm saying is that a fixed fee agreed at the beginning of a project is much better for you. If a fee is based on an estimated cost of the works the fees will fluctuate and will invariably end up much higher than you anticipated.

 

Window costs = £ fees are low.

Window cost = ££££ fees are high.

 

Get me?

 

PS fees will never go down.

Edited February 27 by ETC

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, ETC said:

Get me

Yes.

I thought that was what you were saying.

 

 

[ETC]

First meeting with your architect: “your build will cost very very little and our fees are 10% of that”

Meeting when tenders are returned: “the tenders have come in and it looks like your build is going to cost a shed load more than we anticipated - market fluctuations and all that - I’m sure you understand - and by the way our fees - well they are 10% of a shed load” rubs hands together.

 

[Drellingore]

We're handling the tendering ourselves, so it could be that knowing this the architects are like "damn, we're going to lose our markup on the tendering, so we need to claw that back."

And, in their defence, they were very generous with their time in stage three, giving us more time than they billed for.