Architect's quote - BC specifications stage

[oldkettle]

We have now applied for the planning permission for our extension and the consultation process is under way. The neighbours seem to be supportive, so we started discussing the next stage with our architect. We have engaged with their practice because they have extensive experience working with MBC on multiple projects and I hoped this connection and expertise would help us achieve a good outcome.

 

Before I talk about the details, I want to stress I am not trying to blame or criticise anybody. The architect runs a business and has to make a profit - that is fine. I just want to understand whether we have better options than just accepting the quote provided.

 

Here is the approximate picture of what we are offered

 

1. Building control and structural - just short of £2K, possibly with VAT on top 

1) BC application / Notice

2) Get 3 quotes - I guess for private BC services but may be for the MBC part of the extension work

3) Plans for ground works (as the extension is back and even a little bit front)

4) Detailed drawings for all improvements to the existing part of the building (EWI etc)

5) Doors and windows schedule

these were the items I understand, but there are more

6) electrical and plumbing layout - not sure I want to do it so early

7) confirming existing foundations - I already exposed the foundation and showed LA BCO who accepted it was fine

8) structural engineer calculations and sections for the manufacturing of (MBC) frame - it is stated on the quote that it will be included in MBC price anyway

9) coordination with BCO and consultants - not sure who these consultants are going to be

 

2. SAP and EPC models - £600

 

3. Specification and tender management - again nearly £2K

1) Window and door spec and tender - I thought it was the same as Schedule in 1.5 ?

2) Demolition spec for tender (as we need to remove the roof and the back wall)

3) Groundwork spec for tender - I thought it would be mostly defined by 1.3 and MBC's requirements

4) Drawings and specifications for different works - roofing, EWI, staircase etc.

 

MBC quote included for free in this section

 

There is a separate fee in case we choose multiple contractors instead of just one.

 

If BCO were to request more drawings - this is extra. Site visits - extra. We are planning to excavate the existing slab (most likely not in one go), structural engineer calculation for that are not included either. Etc.

 

I am a bit taken aback by these numbers and will listen carefully to any advice. I am very far from the building trade and reading about success (and problems) of many others here is great but it certainly does not make me much wiser.

 

I am happy to post the latest plans if this helps.

 

Thanks in advance.

[ProDave]

You seem to be offered a package for under £5K

 

When I looked at getting an architect to design our last house (note I only wanted a drawing package not a project management package) I got quotes north of £20K.

 

I didn't use an architect, but if one had offered a price close to £5K I would have.

[oldkettle]

Actually we have paid for the planning stage already. But it wouldn't be 20K in total, no. 

 

[Roundtuit]

From memory, I paid about £2k for item number 1 of the building control stuff, so on that basis, you're getting 2-9 FOC, although 5,6,7,8 sound like 'bulkers' to help justify the price. SAP/EPC modelling was included in my BC application - they've already done the spec, so I'd have thought it was only half an hours work; a quick google suggests < £100.  For me, section 3 feels like it's just into the realms of project management, and its value depends on how you feel about it. Personally I wouldnt have been happy with an architect specc'ing the job past the BC stage, and inviting/comparing tenders isn't rocket science.

Gut feel is that even though they've made their role sound more detailed and complicated than it actually is, and spread some of the cost over the epc, the overall cost is actually quite reasonable.  

[Ferdinand]

Difficult to judge for me, as I have not done it. From here it looks like a not unreasonable quote, subject to bits around the edges.

 

One benefit you have with a fixed (=ish) price is that the risk balance may be less tilted towards you.

 

Add up the packages you have had .... PP and now Building Regs .. and see how it compares with others figures as quoted in various places here for the total. One comparison is that at a rate of say £400 a day (picking a number out of the air to allow for junior staff on some of it) that is 11-12 days of work, which is probably not unreasonable. You have a dozen different work items in there, though some are those that some here have I think done themselves (eg demolition spec?) even when using an architect.

 

Where is the architect based - are site visits going to involve chargeable travel time each way? I think I would ask for an estimated cost per site visit as one query. If it will be reasonable and he is based in Dorking that should be OK; if he is based in Lancaster or St Peter Port then that could hurt.

 

How clearly specified is the end point of the work package - eg what happens if there are extra complications that need extra architect time? I think I would ask for the right to use the drawings you will be paying for without limitation for this project, and an electronic copy / model copy to be included or at a nominal price. Given that there is potential overlap with MBC. I think I might ask for clarification on who's insurance covers what risks - I might frame that q along the lines of "your insurance does cover *these* items, doesn't it?"

 

So, I think the basic thing looks OK, but that there may be an opportunity for some nurdling around the edges.

 

I have just obtained a PP in a business setup, where we had excellent service from a Planning Consultant, but the extra "talking to the Council" bill added a chunk and took my co-owners by surprise.

 

Ferdinand

 

[Gone West]

Parts 1 & 3 sound reasonable. I would have thought part 2 wouldn't be above £200.

[oldkettle]

17 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

From memory, I paid about £2k for item number 1 of the building control stuff, so on that basis, you're getting 2-9 FOC, although 5,6,7,8 sound like 'bulkers' to help justify the price. SAP/EPC modelling was included in my BC application - they've already done the spec, so I'd have thought it was only half an hours work; a quick google suggests < £100.  For me, section 3 feels like it's just into the realms of project management, and its value depends on how you feel about it. Personally I wouldnt have been happy with an architect specc'ing the job past the BC stage, and inviting/comparing tenders isn't rocket science.

Gut feel is that even though they've made their role sound more detailed and complicated than it actually is, and spread some of the cost over the epc, the overall cost is actually quite reasonable.  

Thank you.

May I ask whether your build was MBC or another package provider? I am trying to understand what 2.1 is to be honest, giving building notice does not feel like something that requires 5 working days.

I agree about section 3.  There are a couple of reasons I would like them to take care of getting some quotes (due to their close relationships with the manufacturers) but I hope I am capable of comparing the quotes.

[oldkettle]

 

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

...

Add up the packages you have had .... PP and now Building Regs .. and see how it compares with others figures as quoted in various places here for the total. One comparison is that at a rate of say £400 a day (picking a number out of the air to allow for junior staff on some of it) that is 11-12 days of work, which is probably not unreasonable. You have a dozen different work items in there, though some are those that some here have I think done themselves (eg demolition spec?) even when using an architect.

 

Where is the architect based - are site visits going to involve chargeable travel time each way? I think I would ask for an estimated cost per site visit as one query. If it will be reasonable and he is based in Dorking that should be OK; if he is based in Lancaster or St Peter Port then that could hurt.

 

How clearly specified is the end point of the work package - eg what happens if there are extra complications that need extra architect time? I think I would ask for the right to use the drawings you will be paying for without limitation for this project, and an electronic copy / model copy to be included or at a nominal price. Given that there is potential overlap with MBC. I think I might ask for clarification on who's insurance covers what risks - I might frame that q along the lines of "your insurance does cover *these* items, doesn't it?"

 

Thank you, you've been very thorough as ever. I will definitely ask about the insurance and rights for the drawings as well as electronic copy.

 

The visits are not included and are charged separately, I am aware of the cost as we paid the same during PP stage.

 

The end point is not specified - definitely something to discuss. One of my concerns is the number of unknowns all of which will be charged at a standard rate. Though reasonable, it has added quite a significant % (about 90% of the starting price) to the overall cost of the PP stage and I guess would add much more here.

[Roundtuit]

4 hours ago, oldkettle said:

May I ask whether your build was MBC or another package provider? 

No, not an MBC build, but a 'supply and erect' package from a local timber frame manufacturer (who supplies nationally), using a local architect as part of the deal.  I suppose it was a bit unusual in that the architects 'design' stage was paid for through the TF company (discount rate) as part of the frame contract, but the BC part I paid for directly.  I've had loads of support and advice from the architect and consider it money well spent.