Feedback on quote

[Ahad]

Afternoon,

 

Would appreciate some feedback/ thoughts on a quote we’ve received. Project is a portal frame barn to be converted under class Q into a single story 3 bed house, c2,500 sqft including internal garage. In Worcestershire. 

Thanks. 
 

 

[JohnMo]

If a new build zero vat for one. Other than that stupid expensive 

[Thorfun]

afaik class Q should be zero rated for VAT so i'd look in to that first as that's a massive saving!

[Alan Ambrose]

I think you need a bit more meat - what kind of insulation standard, for instance? Is there a spec somewhere or are is this a rough quote with a lot of the detail left out?

 

If the latter, there may be a lot in there for 'builder's contingency' for stuff left unspecified.

 

 

[Ahad]

20 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

If a new build zero vat for one. Other than that stupid expensive 

Noted on the VAT. 
 

Any specific items that stand out or just in general? Should have said it work out at £1,915 per sqm (ex VAT). 

Edited October 14 by Ahad

[Ahad]

4 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I think you need a bit more meat - what kind of insulation standard, for instance? Is there a spec somewhere or are is this a rough quote with a lot of the detail left out?

 

If the latter, there may be a lot in there for 'builder's contingency' for stuff left unspecified.

 

 

This is the backing detail. 
 

Scope of work:             

General Notes

•       All screws, nails, ferrous metal straps and other misc. ferrous metalwork to be either zinc plated or galvanised.

•       Copies of commissioning certificates (including electrical system) to be deposited with Building Control surveyor as soon as they are available.

•       Demolition of existing unusable floors to commence, all debris removed from site.  

 

Foundations

•       450mm wide strip foundation Gen3 concrete trenchfill of perimeter walls.

•       Excavate sub-soil to a depth of 1.25m below existing ground level & replace with well-graded granular stone, compacted as required.  

•       Concrete vibrated into position to remove all air pockets.

•       Concrete slab to be poured to 150 thick. Concrete grade RC28/35 reinforced concrete. A252 mesh applied in top & 35 cover.  150 insulation on 1200 gauge polythene DPM on 150 compacted granular material (stone) bound with sand.  

 

Underpinning

•       900 x 900 Underpinning of existing 7 column bases, size & depth to vary as required.  

•       Underpinning to be carried out in 2 sections per base location.  

•       Excavate & cast before moving on to next stage.  

 

Damp proof course

• Marley Homegard Housing Grade Pitch Polymer DPC to be placed horizontally around perimeter no. 3 courses above ground level; 450mm laps to joints.

Ground floor construction

•       Latex self-levelling screed to be placed across whole floor to ensure that floor levels are equal; floor finishes are to be installed outside the terms of the main contract.

•       75mm cement: sand structural topping; powerfloat finish (containing underfloor heating pipework).

•       Polythene separating level between top of insulation and underside of structural topping.

•       1000 gauge polythene Damp Proof Membrane; DPM is to be carried across cavity to full width of wall with polythene cavity trays above; all DPM joints and penetrations are to be taped with duct tape.

 

External walls

•       Allowance for outer skin of walls to be cladded in larch.

•       100mm cavity full filled with Celotex insulation.

•       12.5mm plasterboard and skim secured to timber studs.

•       Cavity tray to be provided one course above DPC to enable any moisture in cavity to be shed outwards.

 

Roof Structure

•       Asbestos roof removed & insulated with Kingspan tin & timber purlins.

•       Wall plates to be 75 x 100mm treated SW strapped to tops of walls in accordance with Approved Document A of The Building Regulations 2010 (as amended).

•       6 Skylights to be installed.  

 

Roof joinery

•       All roof joinery to be constructed using wood grain uPVC cladding material. Optional.  

•       22mm thick fascia boards and 15mm thick soffits; uPVC profiles.  

•       Deep flow uPVC Gutters.  

•       Downpipes are to discharge directly to gulleys.

External joinery

•       All external joinery is to be uPVC; precise door style and glazing options for front door to be agreed with client. However as per plan uPVC single front door & screen allowed for.  

•       All joinery to achieve a U Value of 1.4W/m2k.

•       All doors and windows are to be installed by specialists and covered by FENSA Certification.

•       All habitable rooms are to be supplied with 8000mm² background ventilation, all other rooms to have 4000mm² background ventilation; provided via trickle ventilators, all trickle ventilators must be capable of being closed.

•       All glazing to be 4-16-4mm Pilkington “K” Glass sealed double glazed units.

•       All glazing below 1500mm in doors (800mm elsewhere) and within 300mm of door openings to be Kitemarked toughened glass to comply with BS6206: 1981 clause 5.3.

•       Allowance for up to 10 aluminium windows.

•       Entire gable to be aluminium & glass openings as per drawing – sliding doors.  

 

Ceilings

•       All ceilings to be 12.5mm plasterboard and skim throughout.

 

Internal joinery

•       25mm thick MDF window board.

•       75mm architraves and 150mm skirting boards to be fixed with lost head nails

 

Internal finishes – floors

•       Concrete floor to have a latex levelling compound applied in readiness to receive floor finishes; latex chosen to be suitable for the installation of engineered wood flooring, ceramic and quarry floor tiles.

•       All carpeting/flooring to be carried out outside the terms of the main contract.

 

Kitchen

•       Kitchen to be fully discussed with client however a PC sum of £15,000 has been allowed for a based on mid-range standard kitchen from Howdens & won't be fully determined until spec of kitchen is confirmed.

•       Kitchen to be fitted with extractor hood above cooker with an extraction rate of 30l. per second.

•       All extraction fans are to be vented to atmosphere with brown plastic vent grilles.

 

Bathrooms x3

• Bathrooms to be fully discussed with client however a PC sum of £4,900 each has been allowed for a based on mid-range standard bathroom & won't be fully determined until spec is confirmed.

 

Electrics

•       Layout of lighting, light switching and socket outlets to be agreed with client on site; allow for locating an external socket outlet on the rear of the building as well as a light fitting adjacent to the front door.

•       All electrical works to be carried out by an electrical engineer who can self certify the installation upon completion of works.

•       Mains Operated smoke alarms with battery backup to be placed in new porch on Ground Floor.  

•       Light fittings and electrical sockets to be positioned as directed by client on site within the parameters of Approved Document M; all electrical outlets to be manufactured by MK.

•       50% of installed light fittings and bulbs to be energy efficient type to comply with Approved Document L1.

•       PC sum allowed £10,500 for electrics.  

 

Facilities for disabled persons

•       All light switches are to be no higher than 1200mm above finished floor level.

•       Electricity outlets, TV aerial and telephone points are to be no lower than 450mm above finished floor level.

 

Foul Drainage 

•       Access is to be maintained to all above ground waste pipework.

•       110mm diameter stub soil pipe to be placed in corner of roof; fitted with a Durgo type air admittance valve 1200mm above internal floor level; soil pipe to discharge to manhole immediately outside porch extension and in turn to new treatment plant.

•       Foul drainage pipework to fall at a uniform rate of 1 in 60; pipework to be surrounded with 225mm pea gravel; concrete lintels to be provided where soil pipework passes through walls below ground level.

•       Treatment plant to be installed as per plan.  

•       Waste pipework from back inlet gulley to discharge via 110mm diameter pipework to a system of proprietary plastic inspection chambers and eventually to existing site foul drainage system.

•       110mm diameter plastic drainage pipes are to be laid to falls of 1 in 60; surrounded with 225mm pea gravel.

•       Proprietary plastic inspection chambers are to be used at pipe intersections and changes of direction; inspection covers and frames are to be rated to withstand both pedestrian and light vehicular traffic; inspection chambers are to be bedded and installed in strict accordance with manufacturer’s guidelines.

 

Plumbing and Heating

• Air source heating and hot water system to be installed; all works to be specified and installed by a specialist company.

 

Smoke and heat rise alarms

•       Mains operated heat rise detector is to be placed in kitchen.

•       Alarms to be fitted in strict accordance with manufacturer’s instructions.

 

Internal finishes – walls and ceilings

•       All internal walls to be plastered & finished ready to paint.

•       Internal walls to be painted with one sealing coat and two coats DULUX emulsion paint; colour scheme to be wall in Buttermilk or Magnolia, ceilings Pure Brilliant White unless instructed otherwise by clients.

•       MDF Skirting throughout.  

 

Surface water drainage

•       Rainwater downpipes to discharge to surface water drainage system via Hepworth trapped gulleys.

•       110mm Hepworth ring seal (self coloured black) uPVC surface water drainage to fall at a rate of 1 in 80; to discharge to soakaways within garden; soakaway provision required to be sited a minimum 5.0m from dwellings.

Drainage pipes to be bedded and surrounded with 150mm pea gravel; drainage pipes less than 400mm below ground level to be encased in 100mm Gen 3 concrete.

[G and J]

Is t

5 minutes ago, Ahad said:

 work out at £1,195 per sqm (ex VAT). 

Is the floor plan 2500 sqft? if so not sure the figure above ?

[Ahad]

6 minutes ago, G and J said:

Is t

Is the floor plan 2500 sqft? if so not sure the figure above ?

2,000 sqft excluding the garage/ workshop, 2,450 with them included. 
 

Sorry made a typo - should have been £1,915, have corrected now.

Edited October 14 by Ahad

[JohnMo]

9 minutes ago, Ahad said:

Noted on the VAT. 
 

Any specific items that stand out or just in general? Should have said it work out at £1,195 per sqm (ex VAT). 

£90k for DG windows. Aluminium are also rubbish U value.

 

£22k for your plumbing and heating.

 

You need a better ventilation strategy.

 

Only 50% of light fittings are low energy.

 

Looks like a bear minimum building regs build, I would consider upgrading insulation, ventilation, this would make the heat pump half the size.

13 minutes ago, Ahad said:

100mm cavity full filled with Celotex insulation.

Possibly the best way to get poor insulation, sounds great on paper, but if not done really well performance is poor.

 

If you are building to sell on quickly, ok. But if you intend to live in it, I would look upgrade quite a lot.

 

 

 

[Conor]

You need a proper spec done by your designer. What's been specced by the builder is basic and you need to looks tour overall heat loss and heat gain on detail. It'll be a struggle to get a comfortable house that amount of glazing, especially if it's min.spex double glazing.

[Thorfun]

as above....sounds like general "standard" builder as that's "how they've always done it" 🙄

 

if the build is to sell on then i get that but if you plan on living there for any length of time then maybe plan to build in a way that makes it a better house. e.g. insulation levels, airtightness, solar pv etc. some people out there call that an "eco-home" but on here we just call it common sense! 😉 

 

personally i wanted to build a house where i didn't want to spend my pension heating it

[Ahad]

Thanks for all of the responses, really appreciated. 
 

It will be a long term home for us, so keen to do it to a decent standard. But will also consider payback on some of the spec, e.g. if payback on some energy saving initiatives is say 20 years then probably not worth it to me. 
 

In summary the feedback seems to be the quote is high for the standard proposed, and needs a proper review of specification.

[crispy_wafer]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

personally i wanted to build a house where i didn't want to spend my pension heating it

 

That is a great quote and stands out for me!

 

insulate the bollocks out of it, make it as airtight as you can, have a ventilation/heat recovery strategy, also with big glazing think about how to keep out solar energy in the height of summer, and will you want cooling too.

 

Don't let the unknowns put you off, research, and research some more, ask questions, have fun, embrace it and enjoy the ride!

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, crispy_wafer said:

research, and research some more, ask questions

+1 for this! i spent so many evenings reading this forum and what i learnt i took back to the architect and taught them some things along the way.

 

it seems a real waste/shame to build your own house and just go for the standard spec a builder wants to do.

[JohnMo]

Long term

150 to 200mm PIR insulation with UFH pipes at 150 to 200mm centres stapled to insulation and then screed.

 

Ventilation two strategies both will lead to similar heating costs

MVHR, no trickle vents

Or demand MEV or dMEV. You have trickle vents, but they only open based on humidity rise, these are in all dry rooms. dMEV or central MEV unit for wet rooms. Again theses need to respond automatically to humidity levels.

 

Roof insulation 400mm

Wall open to discussion aim for 1.4 or better.

 

Need to look at how windows and doors are installed for cold bridging.

 

Detail airtight details.

[Indy]

£112k for skylights and glazing seems quite excessive I have to say! Unless they are full PH spec, 3G with solar film etc etc. 

Edited November 1 by Indy

[SBMS]

On 14/10/2024 at 13:11, JohnMo said:

Aluminium are also rubbish U value.

 

Our quoted aluminium sliding doors are 0.9 u value. Windows are 0.76 u value. That’s not rubbish?

[Redbeard]

2 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Our quoted aluminium sliding doors are 0.9 u value. Windows are 0.76 u value. That’s not rubbish?

 

This is UW (while unit U value - good, as it includes everything) not Ug (centre-pane U value - less good, for obvious reasons), is it?

 

I have some scepticism re alu windows and doors but they are undoubtedly a lot better than the old 1970's and 1980's non-thermally-broken ones. I was pretty surprised to see how 'vestigial' the 'thermal break' was on one set of alu windows but (after a bit of a shock when the new-build was still pretty 'moist' and the windows were pouring with condensation) they seemed to 'settle down'.

[SBMS]

23 minutes ago, Redbeard said:

 

This is UW (while unit U value - good, as it includes everything) not Ug (centre-pane U value - less good, for obvious reasons), is it?

 

I have some scepticism re alu windows and doors but they are undoubtedly a lot better than the old 1970's and 1980's non-thermally-broken ones. I was pretty surprised to see how 'vestigial' the 'thermal break' was on one set of alu windows but (after a bit of a shock when the new-build was still pretty 'moist' and the windows were pouring with condensation) they seemed to 'settle down'.

Yes this is the Uw value with triple glazed units. Some aluminium units were dreadful - 1.6 Uw and triple not much better. These are Senior’s systems with a polyurethane thermal break. 

[JohnMo]

57 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Our quoted aluminium sliding doors are 0.9 u value. Windows are 0.76 u value. That’s not rubbish?

But those are not a just a generic statement in a quote as below 

 

On 14/10/2024 at 12:55, Ahad said:

All glazing to be 4-16-4mm Pilkington “K” Glass sealed double glazed units.

 

•       Allowance for up to 10 aluminium windows

24 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Some aluminium units were dreadful

Hence raising the question or concern.

[SBMS]

20 hours ago, JohnMo said:

But those are not a just a generic statement in a quote as below 

 

Hence raising the question or concern.

Sorry @JohnMo I thought you were saying all aluminium units were ‘rubbish’ u value. 

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Sorry @JohnMo I thought you were saying all aluminium units were ‘rubbish’ u value. 

No problem