Lvt acts like insulation and makes it harder to heat by 20%?

[CalvinHobbes]

So we have a load of amtico for the ground floor which will have underfloor heating.  Went to a bathroom store today and selected loos, showers, taps etc. He also sold tiles, wood appearance , R11.....he said it was better than lvt because it acts like insulation on the floor and he reckoned made it 20% more expensive to heat a house. Is this true? 

[Alan Ambrose]

Mostly bollox. For UFH, it’s useful if you have good insulation below and good thermal conductivity above - think tiles, lvt etc. You can use e.g. solid wood flooring, but it’s more of an insulator, so slower to warm up.

 

Amtico and most ‘R11’ is pvc, so fairly thermally conductive. The ‘cost to hear a house’ is a function of the overall wall/roof/floor u-values, you would need the whole build up to tell.

 

Actually, I revise my opinion - total outrageous salesperson BS. Ask him ‘what u-values would we be looking at’ and see him flounder.

 

 

[Nick Thomas]

Amtico publish thermal resistance (R values) in these technical documents: https://www.amtico.com/commercial/technical/

 

1/R = U, so U=59ish for the Amtico Access. I wouldn't lose any sleep.

 

 

 

Edited September 6 by Nick Thomas

[SBMS]

2 hours ago, CalvinHobbes said:

So we have a load of amtico for the ground floor which will have underfloor heating.  Went to a bathroom store today and selected loos, showers, taps etc. He also sold tiles, wood appearance , R11.....he said it was better than lvt because it acts like insulation on the floor and he reckoned made it 20% more expensive to heat a house. Is this true? 

20%?? I’d be tempted to put it in the cavity if this was true. 

[CalvinHobbes]

Thank you, hugely appreciated. 

[CalvinHobbes]

Flip sake, took a notion and asked Chat GPT. Read this...

"The exact percentage difference in heating efficiency between Amtico LVT and ceramic tiles can vary based on factors such as:

• Thickness of the flooring
• Insulation in your home
• Efficiency of your underfloor heating system

However, as a general guide, the thermal conductivity of different materials can give a rough idea:

1. Ceramic Tiles: These are excellent conductors of heat, with a thermal conductivity of around 1.1 - 1.3 W/m·K.
2. Amtico LVT: Vinyl flooring typically has a thermal conductivity in the range of 0.1 - 0.3 W/m·K.

Based on this, ceramic tiles can transfer heat approximately 3-10 times more efficiently than LVT. This doesn’t mean your heating bill will increase by 3-10 times with LVT, as other factors like insulation and how efficiently the system is set up play a big role.

In terms of heating cost differences, it could translate into an increase of about 10-20% in energy consumption, depending on the specifics of your heating system and insulation. For a passive home, which is already energy efficient, the impact might be on the lower end of this scale".

[Conor]

Most of our floors are 14mm laminate with wood fibre underlay. Pretty much worst case (other than thick carpet) scenario for UFH. Works fine. Low bills. It is noticeably "cooler" to the touch than the floors with LVT or tiles. But no different from carpeted floors. No difference in room temp or comfort once flow rates adjusted.

[JohnMo]

22 minutes ago, CalvinHobbes said:

Based on this, ceramic tiles can transfer heat approximately 3-10 times more efficiently than LVT

But this is based on thickness of material - as thermal conductivity is per metre thickness of material. So actually looks like the chat bot is talking sh*te - like they mostly seem too.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> the chat bot is talking sh*te

 

Yes, for a random lvt:

 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/a.storyblok.com/f/231903/x/e64b397b14/amtico-signature-technical-specification-sig-ts-20240731-12-en.pdf

 

it says:

 

0.014 m2K/W
(underfloor heating suitable)

 

- for a thickness of 2.5mm i.e. conductivity of 0.18 W/m·K, u-value of 71.

 

A random web site ( https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/thermal-conductivity-of-porcelain ) gives porcelain as 1.5 W/m·K and porcelain flooring tiles are 12mm from memory, so u-value of 125.

 

i.e. not a lot of difference in the scheme of things and they're both v good thermal conductors in building material terms.

 

The big deal with chatgpt et al is that there is no deductive logic there - in fact no logic at all. I'm tempted to suggest that is similar to the quality of your salesman. If it finds the word 'Alan' close to the number '125' often enough it will be happy to conclude that most 'Alans' will be 125 years old.

 

Ask him to do the above calculation to verify his thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[SBMS]

4 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> the chat bot is talking sh*te

 

Yes, for a random lvt:

 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/a.storyblok.com/f/231903/x/e64b397b14/amtico-signature-technical-specification-sig-ts-20240731-12-en.pdf

 

it says:

 

0.014 m2K/W
(underfloor heating suitable)

 

- for a thickness of 2.5mm i.e. conductivity of 0.18 W/m·K, u-value of 71.

 

A random web site ( https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/thermal-conductivity-of-porcelain ) gives porcelain as 1.5 W/m·K and porcelain flooring tiles are 12mm from memory, so u-value of 125.

 

i.e. not a lot of difference in the scheme of things and they're both v good thermal conductors in building material terms.

 

The big deal with chatgpt et al is that there is no deductive logic there - in fact no logic at all. I'm tempted to suggest that is similar to the quality of your salesman. If it finds the word 'Alan' close to the number '125' often enough it will be happy to conclude that most 'Alans' will be 125 years old.

 

Ask him to do the above calculation to verify his thoughts?

 

 

 

 

ChatGPT and other generative AIs (don’t get me started on the terrible misuse of the term) are simply stochastic language parrots, and unable to perform any actual maths calculations. So wouldn’t trust them to actually deduce anything!

[CalvinHobbes]

i need a pole that i can winch up and down to store clothes in a hugh cupboard

 

[CalvinHobbes]

31 minutes ago, CalvinHobbes said:

i need a pole that i can winch up and down to store clothes in a hugh cupboard

 

sorry didn't mean to post that, would delete if I could.