ICF for a large detached garage - in the right forum!

[graham-l]

Hi, 

     just recently introduced myself in another forum.    I want to self build (or manage the build (I'm in my 60s)) of a large detached garage to store a car, a boat/trailer, and some other gear at a approx 100 miles from home.  Despite the intended purpose, I want to have insulation in the walls/roof.  I'm happy with a rendered finish, flat roof (probably kingspan panels), with more than a passing nod to security, so a bit of rebar in the walls and heavy duty garage door and fire door.  I'm thinking the floorplan would be a bit like this (M):

 

                                                                            12

5

5

2                           3

 

or

 

8 3
4   5	4   5

 

The squarer one seems easier.

 

The attractions of ICF to me are - Insulation - light enough for me to build it up - a concrete wall that could take some rebar - eco credentials/re used material in some ICFs such as Durisol.  I appreciate I could use hollow concrete blocks instead and build them up a layer at a time - no pours/just treat them like big bricklaying.

 

Questions

 

- is ICF a suitable way for me to go or should I explore other avenues?

- if yes to ICF, which one and what is a bulletproof render for it?

- build a concrete foundations/base first or ICF in the foundations?

- I'm kinda thinking it's a no, but could I treat a product like durisol the same as hollow concrete blocks i.e. 'bricklay them'?

 

best regards

 

Graham

 

[JohnMo]

With Durisol you can do all underground buildup with that if you want. You remove the insulation and full fill with concrete.

[graham-l]

thanks, useful to know

 

Graham

[Adam2]

Lots of questions come to mind - just finished an ICF house that I managed the build of.

 

Cost - is this very important to you? Maybe other options will be cheaper? 

 

Insulation - Yes you get this with ICF but not in the floor or the ceiling (usually). if you really want this to be insulated curious why - if there is no heat source the temp will still drop/rise just more slowly so unless you use it for working in and have a heater then a high price for something that does not seem to provide much benefit. Not insulating the floor would be a big omission if insulating the walls and ceiling but would mean more groundworks unless you can just build up from current ground level and have a sloped entrance?

 

Security - if you go with ICF you won't need rebar for security - if someone comes equipped to go through 150mm of concrete the rebar will not be a problem. No idea of the risk level of course but a timber building also has eco-crudentials and I would have thought you could get something up v fast. If you wanted insulation then maybe consider SIPs. 

 

Render is fine on ICF - JUB is on mine and seems good but others I'm sure are OK also. 

 

Flat roof - someone could easily get on top and in 5 mins cut out a space to jump down and probably open the door of your storage area etc - so your Ferrari will be off to the parts shop

 

I'm not anti ICF just not enough info to know if it seems right for this purpose vs other options. It is appealing in that you can do a fair bit of work yourself but you could get a good carpenter in and go sail your boat 🙂

 

 

[scottishjohn]

rebar not needed in uk --not much chance of earthquake

and if you are happy building with blocks --why not just use blocks it will be cheaper and you can stop start as you like 

and if you want to insulate you can do that inside the blocks ?

or is this garage going to be a granny flat at sometime 

if so put in drains etc while doing the floor ,and cap them off

v if weight of blocks is a consideration --use thermolite ones

 is your drive /ground  solid enough to take a 32ton concrete truck  

Edited July 18 by scottishjohn

[graham-l]

Thanks Adam and Scottish John,

                                                       all valid points and foor for thought - thanks.

 

Graham

[saveasteading]

On 17/07/2024 at 17:08, graham-l said:

eco credentials

 At end of life this will crushed into a mixed pile of concrete and polystyrene.

Not eco to my mind.

 

I would suggest timber, stick built, if it is nearly all diy.

Or simply buy in a steel shed.

You can finish internally or externally however you wish, for insulation and appearance. Re security, an inner liner will surprise anyone cutting through.

 The doors are the obvious means of entry and exit with your stuff. 

But isn't an intruder alarm the easy solution?

[FM2015]

On 18/07/2024 at 07:44, scottishjohn said:

rebar not needed in uk 

Only if an engineer says so.  There are a couple of products out there peddling this "truth".  Ultimately, if an engineer says it needs rebar, it needs rebar.

 

As far as sustainability is concerned.  Saveasteading is right about the end of life options for an ICF build but bare in mind that 1, the life of the ICF build is at least twice that of a stick build, if not four times;  2, tree farming is one of the least sustainable farming practices on the planet and 3, an ICF done correctly will need less maintenance throughout our it's life.

 

 

[saveasteading]

41 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

the life of the ICF build is at least twice that of a stick build

Interesting.  is there a source for this view?  I live in a stick built timber house built 100 years ago. All looks  good for another 100 ( the house, not me!)

 

41 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

an ICF done correctly will need less maintenance throughout our it's life.

Any building done correctly will last a long time. they are all designed for 50 years, but should last much longer.

 

41 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

tree farming is one of the least sustainable farming practices

As compared to polystyrene farming? 

 

I'm joking. your views are interesting.

[Mr Punter]

The top layout is 36m2, the lower is 64m2.

 

Timber frame with blockwork skin would work OK and not too expensive.  You would need building regs.

[FM2015]

17 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Interesting.  is there a source for this view?  I live in a stick built timber house built 100 years ago. All looks  good for another 100 ( the house, not me!)

 

Any building done correctly will last a long time. they are all designed for 50 years, but should last much longer.

 

As compared to polystyrene farming? 

 

I'm joking. your views are interesting.

And it's a fair point.  Although EPS manufacturing is actually done with a waste byproduct so you could argue it is better to make EPS than not make EPS 

[FM2015]

@saveasteading you live in a 100 year old timber frame house?  I'd always assume anything built in 1920 was better than it's 2020 equivalent.  Not always true but we cut a lot of corners now.  Timber is much lower quality product nowadays.

 

I have nothing against timber frame.  How old was the roof on the Notre Dame before it burned down?  No steel or concrete in that.  I also know about the struggles to find quality timber for it's rebuild.

[saveasteading]

57 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

Timber is much lower quality product nowadays.

I was cutting into the timber cladding for some reason and there was a strong smell of resin still.

Some of the construction is superb, but lots is very poor. 

I'd summarise by saying the timber is good, the joinery workmanship is generally good, but some design decisions were very poor and it has had an interesting life. But it is still with us.

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, FM2015 said:

EPS manufacturing is actually done with a waste byproduct

When current houses are demolished there surely has to be a protocol for removing eps and pir? To ''energy from waste'?

It won't be easy. 

Where does fibreglass demo go now? To landfill I assume. It should go to incineration , not for heat but to return it to sand.

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

When current houses are demolished there surely has to be a protocol for removing eps and pir? To ''energy from waste'?

It won't be easy. 

Where does fibreglass demo go now? To landfill I assume. It should go to incineration , not for heat but to return it to sand.

and there is the problem 

you can recycle nearly everything -but as long as its cheaper not to -then it won,t happen

lithium  batteries are the latest instance 

we dig more raw lithium ,rather than recyling ,cos it is cheaper 

 same goes for grp turbine blades -the cost to grind them down to recyle them into usable grp  again is too expensive - so they go to landfill

 

 you need a government to insist on this ,but it will never happen due to vested interests

 

 we should be promoting hydro and tidal power ,but the return takes too long for the money men ,so we end up with wind trubines  with a fixed life  span and a waste problem 

 

look at any hydro scheme and the life span

 

--most are still going nearly 100 years from when they were built 

 

 we got 3 on the river dee here in s/w scotland -uses the same water 3 times --and now that is the way to do it 

built in1936 and still going

 

we are forecast to have a  warmer wetter  climate and the tides come in and out twice a day --every day 

 and the beauty of hydro is you  decide when you want the power --

the dam is the biggest battery  ever

 

 most rivers could accomadate some sot of hydro scheme- or arcemedes screw   if smaller river with decent flow but not great height drop

 

and it would also help eleviate the flooding problems ,by smoothing water flow 

 

If they think that beavers are the solution to flash flooding in a lot of places ,then why not a proper dam and generate electric  at same  time

 

I know a few farmers that would love to harness the water on thier farms ,but the rate they get for the electric + the planning problems + grid  pproblems  means it does not happen 

 

the money men rule every goverment there has  or ever  will be 

 

no one takes a long enough view on these  things  

-

 

Edited July 25 by scottishjohn