No Idea on price - Does this sound weird?

[GEO-PAR]

Doing my first self build and project managing it myself.  Just had a big retaining wall done and footings up to DPC level by a groundswork sub-contractor, who has done a good job. 

 

Now I need to get someone in to put the walls up (blockwork, cavity, surecav and natural stone on the outside).  To keep my costs down, the intention was for me to get all the materials to site ready and then have a few guys on day rate putting it up (with some idea on how many m2 they'll do a day).  I was given a recommendation for some guys, but they have been consistently reluctant to give an idea on timescale, overall cost or what m2 they can achieve in a day.  The only thing I know is they charge £190 a day each and they're planning to have three of them on site (so £2850 a week for the three of them).  I have a lot of respect for and trust the person that recomended them, and he assured me you will get a day's work out of them for the money.  However I'm getting very nervous and feel like I could be potentially handing someone a licence to print money, and if we fall out mid way through, no other builder will want to touch it? I also worry I could be going into this a bit blind? 

 

Is this normal?  I feel like paying someone day rate for small jobs like garden walls etc is fair but not to stick up the walls on a whole house? 

[garrymartin]

Never work on the basis of trust.

 

If they're reluctant to give you an estimate, how can you possibly budget or plan?

 

Set expectations for them if need be. Research what a reasonable m2 rate for the type of bricks/blocks you are using and the design and conditions they'll be working in and use that as your benchmark if they won't commit to a number they come up with. Get it in writing. If they're not prepared to do that, move on. Do you think a professional employer would continue to pay them a wage if their performance did not meet expectations?

 

It sounds like you may be a little inexperienced in some areas and that might leave you exposed if you are project managing this yourself. Can I suggest you at least get hold of the following two books to arm yourself with some knowledge and expectations when discussing tasks with sub-contractors?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Housebuilders-Bible-15-Mark-Brinkley/dp/1916016839/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chudley-Greenos-Building-Construction-Handbook/dp/1032492880/

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Maybe split the job into tasks if you can. Let them do one bit first (blockwork maybe) and if both parties are happy when that’s done , you can go on from there or switch horses.

[IanR]

2 hours ago, GEO-PAR said:

get someone in to put the walls up (blockwork, cavity, surecav and natural stone on the outside).To keep my costs down...

 

2 hours ago, GEO-PAR said:

  I have a lot of respect for and trust the person that recomended them, and he assured me you will get a day's work out of them for the money. 

 

Is the natural stone an unknown to them? or have you already got this on site and have they experience of laying it previously? Difficult for them to commit to a daily m² if there's an unknown.

 

You're going directly to the trade, without any "management" fee, to keep your costs down - this increases your risk. It's not sounding like you have much appetite for the risk. It's a leap of faith, there will be many if you are project managing yourself.

 

As you have a good recommendation, I'd say go for it, and monitor. Will you be onsite? I definitely would be for the first few days.

 

You're adding to your risk if you are supplying all the materials. If they run out, you are still paying for them. Don't expect them to look ahead, the first you will know they are short is when they reach for it and it's not there. They'll be used to working on a managed site.

 

Get a commitment from them that they are with you till they've finished what you need them to do. As a self-builder you are in a poor position with trades, you have no follow on work for them, so when their normal builder calls with an urgent job they will drop you. Don't pay anything in advance. But when they do invoice, pay swiftly.

[nod]

190 per day is cheap if they put a shift in Most can earn far more I’d wonder why they want daywork Stonework blockwork is really easy to price 

Ask them for a m2 price and offer to pay loading trestling and extra for pikes and fiddly bits 

Daywork can rack up 

[IanR]

16 minutes ago, nod said:

190 per day is cheap 

 

2 brickies and a labourer?

[nod]

12 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

2 brickies and a labourer?

Most Brickies will ear 75 k plus doing site work That’s with all the lost days with bad weather Probably far more in the south of England 

 

Id a Gang of Four at the weekends and there dad an uncle where my Tuesday and Wednesday gang 

Brickie 67 laborer his brother 74 8-4 and would use a pack of solid concrete block in a day and load up for the following day 

 

You May have a good gang that prefer cash jobs and just want a steady wage Your at the right time of year for outdoor work 

[BadgerBadger]

Is your build straightforward, or is complicated?  We had a complicated build and did all our brickwork on a mixture of meterage and day rates.  I must say managing our brickies was probably one of the hardest parts of our build so far, we got through a number of gangs and the amount of technical input they required was high.

 

My preference would be to be on meterage, and fall back to day rate for any complicated bits. (you know where you're at financially, and they're motivated to work hard - but you need to keep an eye on quality)

 

 

[GEO-PAR]

8 hours ago, garrymartin said:

Set expectations for them if need be. Research what a reasonable m2 rate for the type of bricks/blocks you are using and the design and conditions they'll be working in and use that as your benchmark if they won't commit to a number they come up with. Get it in writing. If they're not prepared to do that, move on. Do you think a professional employer would continue to pay them a wage if their performance did not meet expectations?

 

It sounds like you may be a little inexperienced in some areas and that might leave you exposed if you are project managing this yourself. Can I suggest you at least get hold of the following two books to arm yourself with some knowledge and expectations when discussing tasks with sub-contractors?

 

Thanks for the advice and you've mostly summarised what I have been feeling in my gut.  Just ordered both books - thanks! 

 

6 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Maybe split the job into tasks if you can. Let them do one bit first (blockwork maybe) and if both parties are happy when that’s done , you can go on from there or switch horses.

Pretty much planning to do exactly this but potentially with different people now - Someone to stick up the blockwork and insulation (same guy that did my retaining wall. Hiring direct as opposed to through the groundsworker).  & spoke to a stone mason who wants to do just the stonework.  Also scaled back a lot of the stonework based on what his m2 rate.  

 

6 hours ago, IanR said:

Is the natural stone an unknown to them? or have you already got this on site and have they experience of laying it previously? Difficult for them to commit to a daily m² if there's an unknown.

 

You're going directly to the trade, without any "management" fee, to keep your costs down - this increases your risk. It's not sounding like you have much appetite for the risk. It's a leap of faith, there will be many if you are project managing yourself.

 

As you have a good recommendation, I'd say go for it, and monitor. Will you be onsite? I definitely would be for the first few days.

 

You're adding to your risk if you are supplying all the materials. If they run out, you are still paying for them. Don't expect them to look ahead, the first you will know they are short is when they reach for it and it's not there. They'll be used to working on a managed site.

 

Get a commitment from them that they are with you till they've finished what you need them to do. As a self-builder you are in a poor position with trades, you have no follow on work for them, so when their normal builder calls with an urgent job they will drop you. Don't pay anything in advance. But when they do invoice, pay swiftly.

 

Yeah you've hit the nail on the head with this one.  I wanted a drystone wall look, which is why they're reluctant to price per m2.  In all honestly, I'd rather they work day rate and put a little care and attention into it as opposed to just wacking it up (not doing this as a project to flip).  All I wanted from them was a very approx m2 rate so I could see if my desire for a drystone look was completely unrealistic, or whether i needed to scale the quant back (as I have now done after speaking to a different mason, who has come back with approx 180 per m2). 

 

Yeah - I'm on site most of the time (working from home but heading out every hour or so to answer any questions, provide any missing setting out info etc).  In terms of materials - I'm calculating quant's for everything now - Pretty long process but getting there.  I'm ordering materials myself so planning to phone around the builders merchants to try and get the best deals possible. 

 

3 hours ago, IanR said:

 

2 brickies and a labourer?

They said they don't use labourers (not really sure why?).  But all 3 of them wanted 190 a day each... £2850 a week.  Going to start adding up quickly.. 

 

1 hour ago, BadgerBadger said:

Is your build straightforward, or is complicated?  We had a complicated build and did all our brickwork on a mixture of meterage and day rates.  I must say managing our brickies was probably one of the hardest parts of our build so far, we got through a number of gangs and the amount of technical input they required was high.

 

My preference would be to be on meterage, and fall back to day rate for any complicated bits. (you know where you're at financially, and they're motivated to work hard - but you need to keep an eye on quality)

 

 

 

 

I attempted to keep it simple whilst also keeping the planners happy (going for a modern cottage vibe).  Distance between neighbouring garage and site is 700mm, and the same applies the other side where there's a 1.2m retaining wall). Planning to make these elevations timber or render now to save on cost so access for stone laying is not longer an issue.  The only stone will be the three gables and the bit where the bi-fold door is shown. The rest will be charred timber (including the bit that I originally intended to be corten, which I have discovered is mega bucks).  The window with a cross through it is also going (to reduce cost).

 

Cheers for the advice! 

 

 

 

 

 

[bassanclan]

If you are changing materials you will need to go back to planning permission

[BadgerBadger]

8 hours ago, GEO-PAR said:

 

I attempted to keep it simple whilst also keeping the planners happy (going for a modern cottage vibe).

 

 

Looks nice! It's a long way from developer site box-shape though so don't underestimate it's build complexity.  My advice if you're going direct with trades is you will need to be across all the technical details, there's money to be saved but don't forget you've cut a level of expertise out that needs to be filled.

 

I found people can be a bit blasé about the difference between contractor led vs individual trades build routes, and we very nearly got caught out.

Edited July 7 by BadgerBadger

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> If you are changing materials you will need to go back to planning permission

 

But only with a non-material (ta-da  ) amendment.

[Jilly]

Keep a close eye, especially if it’s on day rate. It’s good that you are on site all the time. On day one, I noticed a door gap was in the wrong place, luckily hadn’t gone too far. Think course correction the whole time…