Saul Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 48 minutes ago, Tosh said: Just an idea but is it worth exploring if a group action would be feasible, strength in numbers etc .... That is what we are doing. The Lawyers have instructed Surveyors to do a fresh batch of Testing that will be used as basis for the case. That should happen in the next month or so and then we'll have to let the Lawyers argue about the validity and principle of mortar testing versus the Developer's expert who did a visual inspection of 3 of the 15 homes at 15 mins per house and took some photographs. We're still waiting for his report and professional opinion. 2
Mr Punter Posted April 14 Posted April 14 (edited) I hope the developer is well funded. Have you checked their credit rating? Often the warranty firm will go after the developer to get reimbursed. Some set up a SPV with very little capital. Is this a warranty claim or or against the developer or both? Edited April 14 by Nickfromwales SPV for SVP ;)
Gus Potter Posted April 16 Posted April 16 On 31/05/2024 at 19:40, Saul said: Posted about this before but now extremely concerned so would appreciate comments / advice. Hello Saul Sorry to hear you are having a hard time. Here are a few comments. They are just general but may help you, even if just to rule out. Often ruling things out let's you focus. I do a bit of Claims work now and again, not a lot as I would rather be having fun designing stuff. I'm off the day job so excuse the spelling, grammer and hope you get the jist of my comments! When you get sight of a professional report you must read the caveats and scope of the brief. But as a lay person you will still struggle to understand what these actually mean. This type of report is carefully crafted. You have a lot riding on this and so do the insurers etc. Ok I see you have gone a bit legal.. part of the torture these folk put you through. I was interested when you discussed about the diffferent views on the mortar compressive strength. There was professional who: On 26/03/2025 at 20:50, Saul said: Looks like I was wrong about there not be a professional on the planet that would assert that 1:10.5 could ever be used to build a house. Now that is almost / true in some context.. An example. Say you have a building that is made out of quality Bath Limestone. The beds are just there to keep the weather out and allow the stone to move so we don't get movement cracks...and shed some of the local stress in the stone. Anyway.. You are in dispute, your text and posts exhibit an often observed pattern from my end. You may be feeling that you are getting stuck as you are focusing on the mortar. Now there are lawyers and so on thta add to the confusion. I often feel this is a standard appoarch by say Contractors / Insurers. From their end it's about numbers, size and frequency of claims. Let me paint you a picture: Let's say you find an SE that is a crusty bugger and who does everything based on evidence, knows how the game is played. Let's also say that this SE knows how to inform your Lawyer, who may be young and wants to learn / win and pocket a bit of cash. For me as an SE part of my claims work is to provide the tools to allow the laywer to fight the case. I always go back to basic design principles and most laywers can make hay with that. You write to your opponent and ask to see the original design calculations for the house and if there are any "as built drawings" Now 99% of the time these will not be provided. No calcs / drawings you now have opened the door! Saul you are focusing on mortar strength, say durability, a professional report is introduced about 1:10.5 mortar mix. Your opposition is tying you in knots, taking up your time, causing you stress, potentially blighting the value of your house. This is standard fair and practice when you go up against developers and say the NHBC.. especially when there may be more than one house at risk. What can you do: Ok you are feeling that you are fighting a big wall. BUT it's an old expression.. just change the conversation!.. it's an old addage from I think 1960's marketing.. but still true to this day! Go around the wall! I do claims work now and again.. I don't take on a Claim unless I think I have a decent chance of winning. The NHBC et all have huge resources.. the trick is to find a way round their firewall. I focus on structural safety / fire safety and how all the other ements of the building rely or not on the wall and mortare for example. You can quickly turn the tables on them and rack up their costs! Importantly you can highlight structural safety issues which puts the shiters up them. They have to address this quick as you might report them to the HSE. You are concerend about say the mortar falling out over time.. I'm concerned as an SE about the current structural safety! To fix this the NHBC often need to fix the structural safety aspect which fixes the thing we started argueing about in the first place which is the mortar strength..there are different ways to skin a cat! Well as a home owner you can write, I'm just touching on a few examples here.. but in my day job I go to town! I'll go into any beam bearings on soft mortar, durability.. the whole lot. Once I get going with my SE design safety hat on it can be free for all. In my experience most insurers just throw in the towel.. but you must educate your Lawyer and a good SE for example will do that. Some question you may ask as a lay person: 1/ I know the roof sits on the walls and puts vertical load on the walls does this report (1:10 etc) take the behavoir i=of the buildingninto account. I would love to see copy of said report for interest. 2/ I know the wind blows on the roof and to stop it moving sideways or upwards it needs to be tied to the walls. I know that the regs require the masonry to be of a certain standard so the vertical and as equally important the sideways wind loads are transferred to the walls all the way down to the foundations. 3/ The floors tie into the walls and for these to work the walls need to comply with the assumptions in the floor design. 4/ The wall ties as recommended rely on a certain strength of mortar bed.. if my mortar is not strong enough then that invalidates the wall tie design. 5/ Fire protection. Now I can see the mortar is falling out on the outside. If it is happening on the inside then the fire pretection in the cavity may be compromised? How do you know it's not? 6/ Bridging of DPC's and wall ties in the cavity.. is the mortar falling out causing bridging? 7/ I have windows and doors.. my supplier needs to verify that the walls they are fixing into to comply with the standards. I've just touched in laymans terms on some questions you may want to ask. Gus (that's me) What I do from time to time is to phone up the technical department of say the wall tie manufacturer and say I'm in a bit of a bind what do you think unoffically ? Is this defensable or do you think I'm right? Remember folks that from time to time I may defend a builder? To close: To win this I think you need to change the conversation.. focus on structural safety and how the weak mortar has invalidated the rest of the design. Try and rack up the cost and time to defend for your opponent. At some point they will come to the table and want to negotiate. That is a story for another day. 4 1
SBMS Posted April 17 Posted April 17 20 hours ago, Gus Potter said: Hello Saul Sorry to hear you are having a hard time. Here are a few comments. They are just general but may help you, even if just to rule out. Often ruling things out let's you focus. I do a bit of Claims work now and again, not a lot as I would rather be having fun designing stuff. I'm off the day job so excuse the spelling, grammer and hope you get the jist of my comments! When you get sight of a professional report you must read the caveats and scope of the brief. But as a lay person you will still struggle to understand what these actually mean. This type of report is carefully crafted. You have a lot riding on this and so do the insurers etc. Ok I see you have gone a bit legal.. part of the torture these folk put you through. I was interested when you discussed about the diffferent views on the mortar compressive strength. There was professional who: Now that is almost / true in some context.. An example. Say you have a building that is made out of quality Bath Limestone. The beds are just there to keep the weather out and allow the stone to move so we don't get movement cracks...and shed some of the local stress in the stone. Anyway.. You are in dispute, your text and posts exhibit an often observed pattern from my end. You may be feeling that you are getting stuck as you are focusing on the mortar. Now there are lawyers and so on thta add to the confusion. I often feel this is a standard appoarch by say Contractors / Insurers. From their end it's about numbers, size and frequency of claims. Let me paint you a picture: Let's say you find an SE that is a crusty bugger and who does everything based on evidence, knows how the game is played. Let's also say that this SE knows how to inform your Lawyer, who may be young and wants to learn / win and pocket a bit of cash. For me as an SE part of my claims work is to provide the tools to allow the laywer to fight the case. I always go back to basic design principles and most laywers can make hay with that. You write to your opponent and ask to see the original design calculations for the house and if there are any "as built drawings" Now 99% of the time these will not be provided. No calcs / drawings you now have opened the door! Saul you are focusing on mortar strength, say durability, a professional report is introduced about 1:10.5 mortar mix. Your opposition is tying you in knots, taking up your time, causing you stress, potentially blighting the value of your house. This is standard fair and practice when you go up against developers and say the NHBC.. especially when there may be more than one house at risk. What can you do: Ok you are feeling that you are fighting a big wall. BUT it's an old expression.. just change the conversation!.. it's an old addage from I think 1960's marketing.. but still true to this day! Go around the wall! I do claims work now and again.. I don't take on a Claim unless I think I have a decent chance of winning. The NHBC et all have huge resources.. the trick is to find a way round their firewall. I focus on structural safety / fire safety and how all the other ements of the building rely or not on the wall and mortare for example. You can quickly turn the tables on them and rack up their costs! Importantly you can highlight structural safety issues which puts the shiters up them. They have to address this quick as you might report them to the HSE. You are concerend about say the mortar falling out over time.. I'm concerned as an SE about the current structural safety! To fix this the NHBC often need to fix the structural safety aspect which fixes the thing we started argueing about in the first place which is the mortar strength..there are different ways to skin a cat! Well as a home owner you can write, I'm just touching on a few examples here.. but in my day job I go to town! I'll go into any beam bearings on soft mortar, durability.. the whole lot. Once I get going with my SE design safety hat on it can be free for all. In my experience most insurers just throw in the towel.. but you must educate your Lawyer and a good SE for example will do that. Some question you may ask as a lay person: 1/ I know the roof sits on the walls and puts vertical load on the walls does this report (1:10 etc) take the behavoir i=of the buildingninto account. I would love to see copy of said report for interest. 2/ I know the wind blows on the roof and to stop it moving sideways or upwards it needs to be tied to the walls. I know that the regs require the masonry to be of a certain standard so the vertical and as equally important the sideways wind loads are transferred to the walls all the way down to the foundations. 3/ The floors tie into the walls and for these to work the walls need to comply with the assumptions in the floor design. 4/ The wall ties as recommended rely on a certain strength of mortar bed.. if my mortar is not strong enough then that invalidates the wall tie design. 5/ Fire protection. Now I can see the mortar is falling out on the outside. If it is happening on the inside then the fire pretection in the cavity may be compromised? How do you know it's not? 6/ Bridging of DPC's and wall ties in the cavity.. is the mortar falling out causing bridging? 7/ I have windows and doors.. my supplier needs to verify that the walls they are fixing into to comply with the standards. I've just touched in laymans terms on some questions you may want to ask. Gus (that's me) What I do from time to time is to phone up the technical department of say the wall tie manufacturer and say I'm in a bit of a bind what do you think unoffically ? Is this defensable or do you think I'm right? Remember folks that from time to time I may defend a builder? To close: To win this I think you need to change the conversation.. focus on structural safety and how the weak mortar has invalidated the rest of the design. Try and rack up the cost and time to defend for your opponent. At some point they will come to the table and want to negotiate. That is a story for another day. Fantastic advice @Gus Potter
Temp Posted April 18 Posted April 18 Bit of googling... Selected quotes.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46454844 From 2018.. "New homes 'crumbling due to weak mortar" "Under NHBC guidelines, mortar in most areas of the UK should be made of one part cement to 5.5 parts sand. In severe weather areas such as Coatbridge, there should be even more cement in the mix to make it stronger and more durable." "After 18 months of complaints, the NHBC bought back Mr Fascione's home at the market rate and he is living in alternative accommodation." "In some cases, customers have ultimately had their houses bought back by either the homebuilder or the NHBC. In others, it appears repairs have been made and compensation paid as part of a deal that involves the signing of a non-disclosure agreement or gagging clause." https://ww3.rics.org/uk/en/journals/built-environment-journal/weak-mortar.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The two blog posts by retired construction manager Phil Waller plus a third instalment provide a detailed technical analysis." "This suggests that the quality of the mortar used is not of the required industry, standard specifically BS EN 1996-1-1: 2005 + A1: 2012 Eurocode 6: Design of masonry structures. General rules for reinforced and unreinforced masonry structures, although that in turn refers to further standards such as BS EN 998-2: 2016." continues. 1 1
Gus Potter Posted April 18 Posted April 18 (edited) I'm cack handed, good at the maths but not good at spelling and grammer. I'm going to try and distill but add a bit to my last (long and admittably long rambling post with less ramble).. Seriously folks. @Saul.. you buy a house in good faith, you see something that worries you, do some research and kind of know you are right.. then you get fobbed off, you get over that and then you encounter the delay, deny and defend tactic. This is standard industry procedure. Now as I've said I do a bit of claims work 95% probono . I've represented Architect's that have got sued and domestic clients.. I've only been in court once and won hands down! It's not that I'm a fair weather SE it's because I know how to approach a problem and "change the conversation" if need be. Also, If you ask me to fight on you behalf and think you are swinging the lead.. I'll turn your brief down. The pragmatic objective is to not go to court but get a good settlement. In @Saul case the opponents have much to lose. If they don't settle then their insurance premiums will go though the roof, they could end up featuring in the daily mail or getting a black mark from the HSE. Now even if there are a few houses with the same problem then in the grand scheme of things it's not a big financial problem for say the NHBC.. they have huge resources and "lay off" in the insurance market for example. It sounds brutal but that is how the industry works. @SaulYou must absolutely must get your head around this for your own sanity. Now what about @Saul issue. This will be dealt with at maybe middle management level. One of the secrets is to make it easy for them to just pay out. Everyone has a boss. What you seek to to is to find a few things that are very difficult to contradict. Often you see folks in dispute about cracks in the walls. But that may or may not be structurally unsafe.. the insurer / builder will say " general shrinkage" we told you that in the fine print when you bought the house. As an SE it is very hard for me to argue this case as it's subjective. The Eurocodes make it even harder to argue this case which we call serviceability.. the Eurocodes almost allow the builders to pick their own crack and shrinkage widths.. as an SE I'm often on a hiding to nothing trying to argue this as the NHBC et all chuck professor x and y at me. But as soon as I talk (in an evidenced based way) about the strength of say beams and how they rely on not having too much movement of the walls the Professors point to their fine print and back off! At that point the game is nearly over. I don't discredit the Profs reports I just point out their limitations and how they are invalid to the context of the arguement... by simply asking a few targeted questions. Also I find that some same Professors have had a hand in writing the design codes.. where they stress the importance of say beam bearings, wall ties and building stability systems. @Saul may have been povided with a report.. but you need to know enough to know what it says and means.. but basically look at who paid for it! To understand the meaning you need someone like me! There is no way on this good earth that a laywer will know this.. unless they have a dual qualification.. laywer and SE! Now again @Saul says there is a report that ok's to have a weak mortar. I'll bet that said report is highly qualified. Yes, it may be written by an expert, I'm not challenging that.. what I'm saying is you need to look at everything else that relies on the mortar being of sufficient strength and durability in terms of fire and damp proof protection. You can get this information by phoning up the manufactures. and talking to their experts. At the end of the day they can be quite helpfull. They don't want their name tarnished either! Just imaginge the daily mail saying.. 40 houses need to come down because of wall ties.. when in fact it was shite mortar! Summary : My own view on what I have read on BH is that @saul has a good case.. but to get the best out of it Saul needs to control and lead the laywer.. if not then the case could be potentailly lost or pay badly, the house blighted., and the personal stress and damage to health is just not worth it. I've had a case where the developer has just bought the house back, paid a healthy compensation and you need to sign an NDA. @Saul don't rule this out as an option. I made this work by pelting them so heavily on the cost of HSE compliance, structural safety that a deal was done. The Client wanted an element of "punishment" for what the developer had put them through. That came as part of the deal. Edited April 18 by Gus Potter 1
Saul Posted Tuesday at 10:57 Author Posted Tuesday at 10:57 On 16/04/2025 at 23:17, Gus Potter said: Hello Saul Sorry to hear you are having a hard time. Here are a few comments. They are just general but may help you, even if just to rule out. Often ruling things out let's you focus. I do a bit of Claims work now and again, not a lot as I would rather be having fun designing stuff. I'm off the day job so excuse the spelling, grammer and hope you get the jist of my comments! When you get sight of a professional report you must read the caveats and scope of the brief. But as a lay person you will still struggle to understand what these actually mean. This type of report is carefully crafted. You have a lot riding on this and so do the insurers etc. Ok I see you have gone a bit legal.. part of the torture these folk put you through. I was interested when you discussed about the diffferent views on the mortar compressive strength. There was professional who: Now that is almost / true in some context.. An example. Say you have a building that is made out of quality Bath Limestone. The beds are just there to keep the weather out and allow the stone to move so we don't get movement cracks...and shed some of the local stress in the stone. Anyway.. You are in dispute, your text and posts exhibit an often observed pattern from my end. You may be feeling that you are getting stuck as you are focusing on the mortar. Now there are lawyers and so on thta add to the confusion. I often feel this is a standard appoarch by say Contractors / Insurers. From their end it's about numbers, size and frequency of claims. Let me paint you a picture: Let's say you find an SE that is a crusty bugger and who does everything based on evidence, knows how the game is played. Let's also say that this SE knows how to inform your Lawyer, who may be young and wants to learn / win and pocket a bit of cash. For me as an SE part of my claims work is to provide the tools to allow the laywer to fight the case. I always go back to basic design principles and most laywers can make hay with that. You write to your opponent and ask to see the original design calculations for the house and if there are any "as built drawings" Now 99% of the time these will not be provided. No calcs / drawings you now have opened the door! Saul you are focusing on mortar strength, say durability, a professional report is introduced about 1:10.5 mortar mix. Your opposition is tying you in knots, taking up your time, causing you stress, potentially blighting the value of your house. This is standard fair and practice when you go up against developers and say the NHBC.. especially when there may be more than one house at risk. What can you do: Ok you are feeling that you are fighting a big wall. BUT it's an old expression.. just change the conversation!.. it's an old addage from I think 1960's marketing.. but still true to this day! Go around the wall! I do claims work now and again.. I don't take on a Claim unless I think I have a decent chance of winning. The NHBC et all have huge resources.. the trick is to find a way round their firewall. I focus on structural safety / fire safety and how all the other ements of the building rely or not on the wall and mortare for example. You can quickly turn the tables on them and rack up their costs! Importantly you can highlight structural safety issues which puts the shiters up them. They have to address this quick as you might report them to the HSE. You are concerend about say the mortar falling out over time.. I'm concerned as an SE about the current structural safety! To fix this the NHBC often need to fix the structural safety aspect which fixes the thing we started argueing about in the first place which is the mortar strength..there are different ways to skin a cat! Well as a home owner you can write, I'm just touching on a few examples here.. but in my day job I go to town! I'll go into any beam bearings on soft mortar, durability.. the whole lot. Once I get going with my SE design safety hat on it can be free for all. In my experience most insurers just throw in the towel.. but you must educate your Lawyer and a good SE for example will do that. Some question you may ask as a lay person: 1/ I know the roof sits on the walls and puts vertical load on the walls does this report (1:10 etc) take the behavoir i=of the buildingninto account. I would love to see copy of said report for interest. 2/ I know the wind blows on the roof and to stop it moving sideways or upwards it needs to be tied to the walls. I know that the regs require the masonry to be of a certain standard so the vertical and as equally important the sideways wind loads are transferred to the walls all the way down to the foundations. 3/ The floors tie into the walls and for these to work the walls need to comply with the assumptions in the floor design. 4/ The wall ties as recommended rely on a certain strength of mortar bed.. if my mortar is not strong enough then that invalidates the wall tie design. 5/ Fire protection. Now I can see the mortar is falling out on the outside. If it is happening on the inside then the fire pretection in the cavity may be compromised? How do you know it's not? 6/ Bridging of DPC's and wall ties in the cavity.. is the mortar falling out causing bridging? 7/ I have windows and doors.. my supplier needs to verify that the walls they are fixing into to comply with the standards. I've just touched in laymans terms on some questions you may want to ask. Gus (that's me) What I do from time to time is to phone up the technical department of say the wall tie manufacturer and say I'm in a bit of a bind what do you think unoffically ? Is this defensable or do you think I'm right? Remember folks that from time to time I may defend a builder? To close: To win this I think you need to change the conversation.. focus on structural safety and how the weak mortar has invalidated the rest of the design. Try and rack up the cost and time to defend for your opponent. At some point they will come to the table and want to negotiate. That is a story for another day. All valid points and the I had considered thing like wall ties not working with weak mortar and joists hanging and not having the correct support etc. The house has horizontal cracks down the side elevation on both sides at joist level so the issues are starting to show. We have a team of Chartered Surveyors who will be doing comrehensive surveys together with a specialist lawyer who only deals with private home defects for group action so feel we have the right people to take this on. We are going against the Developer not the Warrantly Provider who are sympathetic to our circumstances and also keen for a resolution given that this has been spotted one week after I moved in and ongoing for one year. The developer retains responsibility for first 2 years so had this not been discovered then the Warranty Provider would have inherited the nightmare for the following 8 years.
Saul Posted Tuesday at 11:03 Author Posted Tuesday at 11:03 On 18/04/2025 at 22:34, Temp said: Bit of googling... Selected quotes.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46454844 From 2018.. "New homes 'crumbling due to weak mortar" "Under NHBC guidelines, mortar in most areas of the UK should be made of one part cement to 5.5 parts sand. In severe weather areas such as Coatbridge, there should be even more cement in the mix to make it stronger and more durable." "After 18 months of complaints, the NHBC bought back Mr Fascione's home at the market rate and he is living in alternative accommodation." "In some cases, customers have ultimately had their houses bought back by either the homebuilder or the NHBC. In others, it appears repairs have been made and compensation paid as part of a deal that involves the signing of a non-disclosure agreement or gagging clause." https://ww3.rics.org/uk/en/journals/built-environment-journal/weak-mortar.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The two blog posts by retired construction manager Phil Waller plus a third instalment provide a detailed technical analysis." "This suggests that the quality of the mortar used is not of the required industry, standard specifically BS EN 1996-1-1: 2005 + A1: 2012 Eurocode 6: Design of masonry structures. General rules for reinforced and unreinforced masonry structures, although that in turn refers to further standards such as BS EN 998-2: 2016." continues. Seen all that. There have been lots of issues with Mortar. I think on this occassion it's not neccessarily the Factory Mixed mortar that is the issue but rather that it has been adulterated at scale on site after delivery. I have photographic evidence of huge piles of sand and pallettes of Hanson Cement on site during the build. Yes they may be used for other things but there is little scope for that and the developer had initially said after investigation that the below DPC issue was caused by human error during the site mix process. They withdrew this statement saying actually they used ready mixed mortar when they realised we wanted testing above DPC and on the Inner Leaf. I've had confirmatory tests that the below DPC weak mortar is the same as that used above. A more comprehensive suite of testing is about to happen across 15 homes (42 affected in total) 1
Gus Potter Posted Wednesday at 20:38 Posted Wednesday at 20:38 @Saul. So lets say they have made a complete bollocks of this and the houses need to come down. I have had a case like this. You need to discuss this with your legal team, hopefully your specialist Lawyer has already had this discussion with you? Explore the options that might be available to you compensation wise and how you costs and lost opprotrunity are going to be covered. Also plan for the builder going bust? It happens. Do you know how big they are, are there problems on other sites?
Saul Posted Thursday at 15:15 Author Posted Thursday at 15:15 18 hours ago, Gus Potter said: @Saul. So lets say they have made a complete bollocks of this and the houses need to come down. I have had a case like this. You need to discuss this with your legal team, hopefully your specialist Lawyer has already had this discussion with you? Explore the options that might be available to you compensation wise and how you costs and lost opprotrunity are going to be covered. Also plan for the builder going bust? It happens. Do you know how big they are, are there problems on other sites? They've got £65m in bank so should not be going bust. We've discussed likely outcomes and will be going through the finer details of what we all want when we have full confirmation and survey results for all 15 houses and approaching the developer with our requirements which may vary from full buy back to wanting to swap homes for ones that have not been built with sand. They have changed masonry company, mortar supplier and sacked their Construction Director already. 1
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