Acoustic enclosure for ASHP

[Nic]

Hi

anyone got any experience or suggestions on an enclosure for an ASHP … planning insisted on something even though it’s 4 m from our neighbours nearest window 🤦🏻‍♂️

[sharpener]

@JamesPa is your man for this.

 

What have yr planners actually put in writing about what they require?

[JamesPa]

21 minutes ago, Nic said:

Hi

anyone got any experience or suggestions on an enclosure for an ASHP … planning insisted on something even though it’s 4 m from our neighbours nearest window 🤦🏻‍♂️

You are doing well with your planners.  My ashp location (if I had one) is 6m from the neighbours window and it's fully screened, still not good enough.  They want me to get to 25dBA at neighbours window (which is essentially impossible).  Council run by Green party. 

 

Acoustic enclosures currently mighty expensive (like 2-4k).  What might you 'get away' with?  Maybe a wooden screen (more solid than a fence) or wall?

Edited May 17 by JamesPa

[Nic]

24 minutes ago, sharpener said:

@JamesPa is your man for this.

 

What have yr planners actually put in writing about what 

 
this is what they have said ….
 

The installation of an acoustic barrier to the front of the ASPH. The acoustic barrier should be built to the minimum specification:
 
A mass of 10 kg/m2, at a height where there is no line of sight from the ASHP to the neighbouring bedroom window.  It must be of solid construction with no air gaps
We feel that a condition to this effect is reasonable to protect residential amenity.
 

[Bozza]

I presume they mean a wall or a solid fence with acoustic properties.  I’m pretty sure you cannot enclose an ASHP.  They need a minimum space around them.

[JohnMo]

30 minutes ago, Nic said:

 
this is what they have said ….
 

The installation of an acoustic barrier to the front of the ASPH. The acoustic barrier should be built to the minimum specification:
 
A mass of 10 kg/m2, at a height where there is no line of sight from the ASHP to the neighbouring bedroom window.  It must be of solid construction with no air gaps
We feel that a condition to this effect is reasonable to protect residential amenity.
 

So something like these, look like a stock fence panel

https://www.jacksons-security.co.uk/acoustic-security-barriers

[JohnMo]

Or make your own with with tongue and groove wood on either side and this in the middle (a sandwich panel)

https://www.soundinsulationstore.co.uk/products/barrier-mat-10kg

 

Or build a shed between ASHP and the window, line one wall with the barrier mat.

[G and J]

Without the layout it’s kinda difficult to contemplate - May we have a diagram?

[Moonshine]

First floor or ground floor window.

 

Is it not going in as PD and meeting the mcs020 noise limit of 42 dB?

[JamesPa]

49 minutes ago, Nic said:

 
this is what they have said ….
 

The installation of an acoustic barrier to the front of the ASPH. The acoustic barrier should be built to the minimum specification:
 
A mass of 10 kg/m2, at a height where there is no line of sight from the ASHP to the neighbouring bedroom window.  It must be of solid construction with no air gaps
We feel that a condition to this effect is reasonable to protect residential amenity.
 

That's pretty much a specification for a fence/wall/barrier not an enclosure, which is good.

 

So you just need to design something at least as far away as the min distance specified in the ashp spec.  Distance will determine height and maybe width.  Density and chosen material will determine thickness.  I did a quick density calculation, it's thicker than a fence but not as solid as a brick wall if you make it from wood.  Obviously something loaded, like the barrier mat @JohnMosuggests, can be thinner because it's denser.

 

Plan of the area and the full text of the condition would be good.

 

Ps if the barrier is more than han 2m high it might require planning consent!

 

Edited May 17 by JamesPa

[Nic]

49 minutes ago, G and J said:

Without the layout it’s kinda difficult to contemplate - May we have a diagram?

 

[Nic]

49 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

That's pretty much a specification for a fence/wall/barrier not an enclosure, which is good.

 

So you just need to design something at least as far away as the min distance specified in the ashp spec.  Distance will determine height and maybe width.  Density and chosen material will determine thickness.  I did a quick density calculation, it's thicker than a fence but not as solid as a brick wall if you make it from wood.  Obviously something loaded, like the barrier mat @JohnMosuggests, can be thinner because it's denser.

 

Plan of the area and the full text of the condition would be good.

 

Ps if the barrier is more than han 2m high it might require planning consent!

 

The planners are stipulating it 😂 

[Moonshine]

6 minutes ago, Nic said:

 

 

I remember this site, I did tell you I'm an earlier post/message that you would probably would have to move the ASHP due to the neighbours window.

 

Can you put it on the northern or Southern  facade so the side is facing the neighbours house and get a fence in the way. At the moment the fan is discharging straight to the neighbours and you won't be able to put a barrier in the way. 

[Nic]

32 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

I remember this site, I did tell you I'm an earlier post/message that you would probably would have to move the ASHP due to the neighbours window.

 

Can you put it on the northern or Southern  facade so the side is facing the neighbours house and get a fence in the way. At the moment the fan is discharging straight to the neighbours and you won't be able to put a barrier in the way. 

Thanks what about this option? 
 

 

[sharpener]

1. Presumably a short return fence on the end of the house will screen the HP from the neighbour's window.

 

2. If it uses R290 check it is not too near the kitchen window

 

3. Could you run the primary pipework through the kitchen so the heat loss from it is inside the thermal envelope?

 

N.b. I put up an expensive fence from Jacksons thinking it would see me out. But the posts rotted through in less than 10 years. I had a lot of trouble getting them replaced under warranty, it was a lot of extra work to put them in and the fence doesn't look the same. So don't pin a lot of hope on the 25yr warranty on their acoustic panels.

[JamesPa]

11 hours ago, Nic said:

 

Three questions 

 

Where is the neighbours window?

Is the driveway yours?

How high is the ashp?

Edited May 18 by JamesPa

[Nic]

26 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Three questions 

 

Where is the neighbours window?

Is the driveway yours?

How high is the ashp?

The neighbours closest window is ground floor the other side of our driveway so about 4.5m from where the ASHP is shown 

I haven’t chosen an ASHP yet so not sure on size 

[Nic]

10 hours ago, sharpener said:

1. Presumably a short return fence on the end of the house will screen the HP from the neighbour's window.

 

2. If it uses R290 check it is not too near the kitchen window

 

3. Could you run the primary pipework through the kitchen so the heat loss from it is inside the thermal envelope?

 

N.b. I put up an expensive fence from Jacksons thinking it would see me out. But the posts rotted through in less than 10 years. I had a lot of trouble getting them replaced under warranty, it was a lot of extra work to put them in and the fence doesn't look the same. So don't pin a lot of hope on the 25yr warranty on their acoustic panels.

 

I haven’t chosen an ASHP yet any recommendations? I don’t know what R290 is I’m afraid.

the ASHP will only run 55m2 UFH downstairs ( one zone all open plan except the utility which I won’t have UFH in , so a bit less than 55) and the DHW which it’s only a two bed and three of us living there so not a high demand will want to top up the heating the DHW with the solar on the roof . Any recommendations welcome 🙏 Thanks 

[JohnMo]

Just now, Nic said:

haven’t chosen an ASHP

You need your heat loss calculation first, then go from there. But once you know the rating then irrespective of make they will be all similar sizes for a given output.

 

Locations, could it be located where it says patio on the drawing by the tree or shrub?

[Nic]

6 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

You need your heat loss calculation first, then go from there. But once you know the rating then irrespective of make they will be all similar sizes for a given output.

 

Locations, could it be located where it says patio on the drawing by the tree or shrub?

Yes John  it can be located anywhere down there really was initially where it was to reduce the run to the room it was going to need to be feeding. do you have any ASHP recommendations? Thanks again 
 

[IGP]

The heatgeek guys are all over the Valliant Arotherm Plus and Viessman Vitocal 150A and some Nibe models. 

14 minutes ago, Nic said:

Yes John  it can be located anywhere down there really was initially where it was to reduce the run to the room it was going to need to be feeding. do you have any ASHP recommendations? Thanks again 
 

These seem to be the ones at the top of the heatpump monitor leaderboards. 
https://heatpumpmonitor.org

[JohnMo]

Something like a Panasonic R32 monobloc, seems to good. More important than make is the way it's installed. Makes and models last - heat demand calc first, then system design, then which heat pump.

 

For me important bits are

1. Heat pump max output, needs to be as close to max heat input required (allowing for DHW heating also).

2. Open system, no zones (if upstairs and down stairs maybe two zones max.)

3. If you have Radiators and UFH, run at same temperature, so no mixers are required.

4. No buffer or secondary circuits (requiring additional pumps) or unnecessary mixing of supply and return water.

5. Use only manufacturer controls, if possible avoid 3rd party control.

6. If the design seems complicated it isn't right. It should be simple.

 

I use a Maxa heat pump, not normally imported to UK, unless rebranded to Viessmann. I do use a 3rd party thermostat only because the Maxa/Viessmann one wasn't available for sensible money.

[JohnMo]

12 minutes ago, IGP said:

The heatgeek guys are all over the Valliant Arotherm Plus and Viessman Vitocal 150A and some Nibe models. 

These seem to be the ones at the top of the heatpump monitor leaderboards. 
https://heatpumpmonitor.org

They are also towards the bottom of the chart also. You have to careful reading this information, mild Bristol isn't the same as a cold Highlands of Scotland, so expected SCoP will be very different... Any heat pump can be made to work well or badly.

[sharpener]

48 minutes ago, Nic said:

I haven’t chosen an ASHP yet any recommendations? I don’t know what R290 is I’m afraid.

the ASHP will only run 55m2 UFH downstairs ( one zone all open plan except the utility which I won’t have UFH in , so a bit less than 55) and the DHW which it’s only a two bed and three of us living there so not a high demand will want to top up the heating the DHW with the solar on the roof . Any recommendations welcome 🙏 Thanks 

 

For clarification is this a bungalow? If not how is the upstairs heated?

 

R290 (propane) is the latest refrigerant gas which some HPs use, it is more efficient but inflammable so there are restrictions on putting them near doors and windows.

 

55m^2 is quite small hence you will not need a twin-fan unit. So it will probably be lower than the window sill, which is OK (since propane is heavier than air) unless it is actually a doorway or there are open drains nearby. Plenty of good HPs about that are still using R32 which is non-flammable so does not have this issue.

[JohnMo]

9 minutes ago, sharpener said:

it is more efficient

Not really

More efficient for production of hot water above 60 degrees, because R32 will only do 60 degs max. 

 

But when comparing SCoP at 35 - Vaillant 5kW 4.48, my Maxa R32 6kW, 4.46. So no real difference.