Which would you choose?

[MikeGrahamT21]

Hi,

 

Before you comment on this, please bear in mind I don't want to spend thousands and thousands on Alu Clad Timber windows, but rather are more modest uPVC in 7016 grey to the outside.

 

I've narrowed my choice down to two profiles, both would be triple glazed with the following spec:

 

• Liniar's brand new EnergyPlus90, 90mm profile which I would furnish with 48mm Triple glazing (4-18-4-18-4) which I believe would give a u-value somewhere in the region of 0.7-0.8U for the whole window. This profile is very new and very hard to get hold of at the moment, but i'd be willing to wait for it, its a 9 chamber product, which has ph-B status. We have other Liniar profile already (energyplus70), which i quite like, and they use q-lon gaskets on their windows which I also like.
• Eurocell's Modus, which is a 75mm profile, which can take a maximum of 44mm triple glazing (4-16-4-16-4) which gives a certified u-value of 0.8U for the whole window. This product is a 6 chamber, non-passivehouse certified profile, which is easy to get hold of, and can be ordered from the many retail outlets which Eurocell have. Not sure what gaskets they use, website talks about triple seals and airtightness which is a good indication, but I have had eurocell (eurologik) products in the past, and haven't been massively impressed, this however is a very different product.

 

Does anyone have any experience of these products? Not expecting it for the Liniar one as its only just been launched, but the eurocell one has been out for a while. Because the Liniar one is so new, getting a quote for comparison is quite difficult. I did email a company in Nottingham, however they have gone quiet on me.

 

I saw a post by Jeremy talking about the gas spacing in the triple, and from that I reckon the Liniar one would be more suitable, nearer the 20mm spacing, but if both hold the sameish u-value, would there be much difference?

 

Any comments greatly received.

 

Regards

Mike

[Ferdinand]

If looking at uPVC one thing I would examine is the Frame Factor, and whether that will have an impact on the amount of light that comes in.

 

Frame Factor = area of opening taken up by window frame and bars, which I have seen expressed as eg 0.75. If one is say 0.7 and the other 0.8 based on your size of windows, that is quite a difference.

 

Mine at home are around 0.8, but I will post a piccie later of a house that I think has probably suffered from replacement windows with thick frames and window bars.

 

It is dead easy to calculate.

 

I think comparative prices may also be signficant. How much more will you spend on one over the other if they are comparable in performance? 

 

If you enviroment is noisy, then that *might* argue for Option 1.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Ferdinand

[MikeGrahamT21]

Yeah absolutely, less frame and more glass will always be better. Both products boast about slim sightlines for maximum glass area, so there may not be much in it. Yes the Liniar frames are indeed marketed for improved acoustics, however we don't really require that as the area where we live is very quiet, most of the time you could hear a pin drop!

 

I know for a fact our current windows suffer from chunky frames, and are indeed designed badly (on our part when i didn't know any better) to have too much frame. The new windows I'll be designing with as little frame as humanly possible, so we get the most glass area.

[PeterW]

I've just taken delivery of 3G UPVC from Modern Trade Windows and I'm impressed with the quality and build. Couple of niggles with them but that is down to me making frame sizes very tight to brickwork, not the manufacturing..! They use Profile 22 and its a 4-16-4-16-4 unit with softcoat. We nearly went for their anthracite grey however when I got a sample it appears to have a grey/blue tinge to them. This is common on a lot of the UPVC profiles so I suggest you get a sample of the profile and do not go by the catalogue..!

[MikeGrahamT21]

Yeah the 7016 on upvc does have a slight blueish tint i agree, we have some already, but I don't mind it, looks nice when installed.

 

What are the u value on those windows? I'll take a look at that company, and also the profile.

[TerryE]

2 hours ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

(4-18-4-18-4) which I believe would give a u-value somewhere in the region of 0.7-0.8U for the whole window... which can take a maximum of 44mm triple glazing (4-16-4-16-4) which gives a certified u-value of 0.8U for the whole window. This product is a 6 chamber, non-passive house...

 

IMO, the odd 0.1 U-value delta over the area of windows makes bugger-all difference to the overall thermal budget of the house.  Again, its personal view but architects seems to have a great love of large expanses of glass.  From a thermal management viewpoint this is really bad news.  Not only is glass 7-10× more conductive than an equivalent wall profile, the per unit area cost is also 10× or more than wall.  Solar gain and its in part in the thermal management of the house are major design complications.  People also seem to forget that the ability to see out also means that neighbours and passers-by can easily see in. 

 

My strong suggestion is that you thing hard about how much glass you really need.  For adequate light, yes; for access to stunning views, yes.  However, I've also seen members post pictures on the forum of  internal views of acres of south facing glass looking out onto the fence-line and the backs of neighbouring houses, and I really have to question the wisdom of this design when it has so many disadvantages and almost no gains.

[PeterW]

20 minutes ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

Yeah the 7016 on upvc does have a slight blueish tint i agree, we have some already, but I don't mind it, looks nice when installed.

 

What are the u value on those windows? I'll take a look at that company, and also the profile.

 

This is the certificate for the windows

 

Drop me a PM if you want some installed photos. 

[MikeGrahamT21]

Yeah i'll definitely look into these. If you wouldn't mind sending some pictures, especially of the internal beading. The eurocell modus is definitely better than this, but its whether it warrants the extra £, and at the moment I don't know how much extra £ that would be.

[MikeGrahamT21]

Also, what type of spacers do they use, no mention of that on the website? Our current 'new' ones are the black thermal spacers

 

EDIT: Found it:

 

• Inner pane – Pilkington KS
• Outer pane – Pilkington Optiwhite
• Gas filling – Argon Gas
• Spacer bar – SuperSpacer
• Thickness - 28mm or 36mm for triple glazing

 

How did you manage to get 44mm for triple from these, they don't seem to offer it?? Do you have to speak to them direct?

Edited October 11, 2017 by MikeGrahamT21

[PeterW]

Sorry they are 4-12-4-12-4

[MikeGrahamT21]

ah right, the profile will take 44mm according to the profile manufacturers website, must be a squeeze though!

 

4-12-4-12-4 are the same as our current 'new' windows, which we are quite happy with, but wondered if the gas gap was a little on the slim side to be truly efficient.

[soapstar]

On 11/10/2017 at 09:15, MikeGrahamT21 said:

Hi,

 

Before you comment on this, please bear in mind I don't want to spend thousands and thousands on Alu Clad Timber windows, but rather are more modest uPVC in 7016 grey to the outside.

 

I've narrowed my choice down to two profiles, both would be triple glazed with the following spec:

 

• Liniar's brand new EnergyPlus90, 90mm profile which I would furnish with 48mm Triple glazing (4-18-4-18-4) which I believe would give a u-value somewhere in the region of 0.7-0.8U for the whole window. This profile is very new and very hard to get hold of at the moment, but i'd be willing to wait for it, its a 9 chamber product, which has ph-B status. We have other Liniar profile already (energyplus70), which i quite like, and they use q-lon gaskets on their windows which I also like.
• Eurocell's Modus, which is a 75mm profile, which can take a maximum of 44mm triple glazing (4-16-4-16-4) which gives a certified u-value of 0.8U for the whole window. This product is a 6 chamber, non-passivehouse certified profile, which is easy to get hold of, and can be ordered from the many retail outlets which Eurocell have. Not sure what gaskets they use, website talks about triple seals and airtightness which is a good indication, but I have had eurocell (eurologik) products in the past, and haven't been massively impressed, this however is a very different product.

 

Does anyone have any experience of these products? Not expecting it for the Liniar one as its only just been launched, but the eurocell one has been out for a while. Because the Liniar one is so new, getting a quote for comparison is quite difficult. I did email a company in Nottingham, however they have gone quiet on me.

 

I saw a post by Jeremy talking about the gas spacing in the triple, and from that I reckon the Liniar one would be more suitable, nearer the 20mm spacing, but if both hold the sameish u-value, would there be much difference?

 

Any comments greatly received.

 

Regards

Mike

 

Hello @MikeGrahamT21 I know this is an all post to say the least however we have been trying to decide which type of windows to go with recently and came across Eurocell's Modus range and noticed this was an option for you, did you so happen to go with these?

 

Our biggest issue is given we have a large gable end window we would like to maximise the glass and less of the frame, we do not want to have chunky frames. I believe this is called 'frame factor' as described in @Ferdinand post - thanks for this I have been trying to find the correct word for describing this issue! From what I can gather the modus range which has 3 sash options (standard, slim and fully flush) may give us the look we are happy with opposed to the standard Eurocell range which our builder uses. We are scared these will be too 'chunky'.

 

Probably a silly question however what does the profile measurement refer to, from what I can gather this relates to the depth of the frame, nothing to do with the width of the frames? So for example a 75mm profile is not linked to the overall  'frame factor'?

 

Any pictures of the modus range in action would be great! I am very much struggling to get in touch with someone at Eurocell that can guide me anywhere I can physically see these windows!

 

 

 

 

[MikeGrahamT21]

I've still not got round to it yet!

 

Had the window fitter here the other day, to take all the specs down and he is going to speak to his supplier, but looking to go with Modus profile, and Pilkington glass to achieve 0.8Uw. Standard Eurocell (Logik 70) is a horrid profile! I've got one of these, last double glazed window we put in, never again!

 

75mm is the thickness of the window units (not the sill), so the standard profiles tend to be 70mm and accept up to 36mm triple, 75mm gets you up to 44mm triple which is the sweet spot, and then Liniar do a 90mm which I think gives 56mm triple, or quad, but the gap in triple would likely be too wide to make it worth its while. There is also Rehau Geneo if you can get it, another 75mm profile, this one is quite different though, its actually a GRP Fibreglass profile, coated in PVC as a top coating, making it very strong and thermally efficient.

 

Will post some pics when they are in, probably won't be til May/June time when its a bit warmer and less windy.

[NandM]

Hi Mike...I thought I'd give life to this thread again and see which route you took. I've just messaged Eurocell to start a quoite for their Modus profile.

[MikeGrahamT21]

On 15/11/2021 at 09:21, NandM said:

Hi Mike...I thought I'd give life to this thread again and see which route you took. I've just messaged Eurocell to start a quoite for their Modus profile.

 

Sorry I never got any further with this. I did find that eurocell no longer sell the glass which allows 0.81U as per their brochure, they now use AG Glass which I think came in at around 1.0U, so its probably better to go to a wholesaler so that you can pick and choose frame and glass.