Help with Completion Certificate on Existing House

[AliG]

I have sold my existing house, but none of the people who have previously done work on the house ever got the completions signed off.

 

I am on Scottish regs.

 

A couple of years ago BC came out and gave me a list of things to do. I had all of them done, but then when I called them out again recently a different person came and started asking more questions.

 

I really need to get these things done in the next 4-6 weeks, we are supposed to complete on the sale on December 8th.

 

I actually applied for the completions in April, but somehow the BC department lost the applications done over the internet and they didn't come until last month. 

 

Now they say they are waiting for the person who inspected the original work coming back from holiday to see what they say before they will issue the list of things needing done, they aren't exactly the easiest people to get hold of.

 

The issues I think are.

 

1. Missing SVP - The drawings show a SVP terminating above the roof. They also show a Durgo AAV in an upstairs WC. connected to the same line. BC asked where the SVP was, is an AAV enough, or does every line need a SVP. There have been no issues with the drainage.

 

2. I had some work done on the kitchen that needed BC sign off. This meant I had to upgrade the smoke alarms from when the house was built. The alarm company have fitted a smoke alarm. BC asked for the spec, I am thinking it maybe has to be a heat detector?

 

3. The games room drawings show two smoke detectors, but only one has been fitted. I cannot find anything in the regs that would suggest I need two.

 

4. There is a downpipes that goes through the garage it enters the front wall of the extension goes through the garage then exits the side wall before going down to ground level. I am sure it was agreed to by BC at the time and the previous inspector said nothing but the new inspector has brought it up again. She said that she wasn't sure if it was allowed.

 

5. Loose banister - I have tightened it up by, not clear how solid it needs to be.

 

I think the main issue is number 1, I can always get new detectors added. If they change their mind on the downpipes there is no where else to put it except across the front of the house which would not be great.

 

Thanks for any help

 

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

How long ago was the work done?

 

Last time we encountered this problem when selling a house, we just paid a one-off premium for an indemnity policy, IIRC it was around £150 or so.  That was for no record of building regs compliance on two extensions that the previous owner had built - should have been picked up by our solicitor when we bought the house but wasn't.

[AliG]

There are 3 outstanding warrants, 2 from 2008 the extension and a larger conservatory and 1 from 2012, the kitchen. There was a 4th one for a new set of doors which was signed off straight away.

 

I think you can apply for indemnity if there was no warrant ever applied for not sure if you can do the same if warrant was applied for but completion never received.

 

I would rather get all fixed though as that will mean definitely no issue selling the house.

 

My solicitor insisted that I had to have all the warrant drawings to go with the deeds of the house. I didn't know that was necessary. I just got them from the council.

 

This is the first house I have ever had work done on, I didn't't really know what was involved at the time. I just thought that the builders got the completions when they were done. You live and learn.

[ProDave]

1:   My BC officer insisted on at least ONE vent pipe through the roof of the house. I pointed out the far end of the run was vented at the static caravan, bur he argued that could be removed and the run capped off there and there would be no vent.  He would have accepted an external stack up the outside wall from the drain run, but the parking pad had been concreted by then so it was too late. So it looks like you will need a stack through the roof or a vent pipe up the outside.

 

2: has to be a hard wired (or RF linked) heat detector in the kitchen

 

3: Arguable point. Building regs say one, but if for some reason your approved plans show 2, they might insist on 2. Argue the point and ask them to show you the reg that says you need 2.

 

4: Outside my expertise.

 

5: What sort of banister?  Our previous house we used the Richard Burbidge Fusion system. By it's nature it was a pine pole fitting into a chrome bracket. There was a bit of play, but once the "slack" was taken up it was solid. Our BC officer failed it (and a few other reasons, he tried to say it needed an 1100mm high handrail)  He thought it was something we cobbled together rather than a stair parts manufactured system.  We protested so he "sought guidance" from the Scottish government, and a few months later deemed it was okay and issued our completion certificate.

[Bitpipe]

33 minutes ago, ProDave said:

1:   My BC officer insisted on at least ONE vent pipe through the roof of the house. I pointed out the far end of the run was vented at the static caravan, bur he argued that could be removed and the run capped off there and there would be no vent.  He would have accepted an external stack up the outside wall from the drain run, but the parking pad had been concreted by then so it was too late. So it looks like you will need a stack through the roof or a vent pipe up the outside.

 

 

My BC said I didn't need an external SVP as the neighbouring houses both had one and he said that one was needed per 5 dwellings on the same sewer run. We have Durgos on the internal stacks.

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

My BC said I didn't need an external SVP as the neighbouring houses both had one and he said that one was needed per 5 dwellings on the same sewer run. We have Durgos on the internal stacks.

I was talking from the perspective of a private treatment plant serving 1 dwelling, where the drain run must be vented at the treatment plant end and the far end of the run.

[AliG]

Thanks for the help.

 

It seems that there is room to argue on the SVP.

 

The house does have an SVP, but the extension is on a separate drain run into its own inspection chamber outside.

 

I need to get them on the phone, which of course is nigh on impossible.

 

If they want a heat detector, it should be easy enough to get the alarm people along to fit an Aico, I just need them to actually confirm if this is the case or not.

 

The banister is I think pine. The spindles go into a base rail and then there are blocks hammered in in between them. There were a couple of nails in the bottom of each spindle. I simply went alone with a nail gun and put three pins in each side of each spindle and then added a few extra nails in between the spindles. Not the most elegant solution but it feels a lot firmer now, tbf it always felt loose.

Edited October 9, 2017 by AliG

[Nickfromwales]

12 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

 

My BC said I didn't need an external SVP as the neighbouring houses both had one and he said that one was needed per 5 dwellings on the same sewer run. We have Durgos on the internal stacks.

You can push for one in 10 down here. 

Rule of thumb as I understand it is each single self contained dwelling should provide a minimum of one SVP to atmosphere to ventilate gasses from the public sewerage system. It's nothing to do with what's going on IN the dwelling and isn't required to assist in any 'plumbing' functionality. 

Thats the reason why you can petition them on the one in 5 / 10 rule, HOWEVER, if your house is at the end of the run, eg the public sewer terminates at your house rather than traverses or passes it then you'll get a gaseous build up so therefore need a SVP to satisfy said requirement. 

There is absolutely zero need for you to have a second SVP, that's just nonsense. Challenge it and ask why it needs two, and ask for it to be given in writing with an explanation. They'll drop it like a hot rock. 

Smoke detector in the kitchen may be to compliment the obligatory heat detector if the kitchen us over a certain size / the room space is excessively big. 

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

You can push for one in 10 down here. 

Rule of thumb as I understand it is each single self-contained dwelling should provide a minimum of one SVP to atmosphere to ventilate gasses from the public sewerage system. It's nothing to do with what's going on IN the dwelling and isn't required to assist in any 'plumbing' functionality. 

Thats the reason why you can petition them on the one in 5 / 10 rule, HOWEVER, if your house is at the end of the run, eg the public sewer terminates at your house rather than traverses or passes it, then you'll get a gaseous build up so therefore need a SVP to satisfy said requirement. 

There is absolutely zero need for you to have a second SVP, that's just nonsense. Challenge it and ask why it needs two, and ask for it to be given in writing with an explanation. They'll drop it like a hot rock. 

Smoke detector in the kitchen may be to compliment the obligatory heat detector if the kitchen us over a certain size / the room space is excessively big. 

 

Actually maybe he did say 1:10, I was surprised at the general principal and relieved that I didn't need to cut a hole in my newly GRP'd flat roof. We're second to last on the run so are ok

[AliG]

At what point do I escalate and start complaining to the BC inspector's manager?

 

She came on 18th September and emailed me on 20th saying that she had to speak to someone when they were back from holiday. It will be 4 weeks on Monday.

 

I have emailed twice and left one voice mail since then with no response.

 

I don't want to wind these people up but equally, I originally applied for completion certificates in April and it is now October!

[AliG]

I finally got a reply with a list of what needs done.

 

Apparently my BC inspector is off sick but no one told me.

 

Here is the list. Any help is most welcome.

 

1.            The rain water pipe at the front of elevation has been duct through the garage.  The rain water pipe requires to be waste quality and sealed joints. (Technical Standard 3.7)

2.            Steps at garage as not as per the approved plans, please clarify the construction and it should be a permanent fixture.

3.            Fire test certificate for the garage door. Technical Standards 2.2.4 requesting a minimum 30 minutes fire resistant rating to garage door)

4.            The kitchen requires to be provided with a heat detector as indicated on approved warrant 12/00160/ALT. Heat detector to be interconnected with other detectors (smoke) if in place.

5.            Provide a photograph of the stone gable vent. (08/02003/EXT)

6.            Provide photographs as discussed. Eaves and ridge vents to all roof areas, and  insulation to the garage wall. (08/02003/EXT)

7.            Second smoke detector to be fitted in games room. (Under Technical Standard  2.11 smoke detectors are required to be a certain distance apart and also shown on approved plans (08/02003/EXT)

8.            Door to toilet on the first floor is less than 800mm. (08/02003/EXT)

9.          Final drain test at rear of house failed on the 4 April 2014, no further test has been carried out since (08/04783/ERECT)

 

I am going to try and speak to the person who sent it who is the manager of the inspector who came out, but have a few questions.

 

1. There is a down pipe that goes through the garage. I don't understand the reference to Technical standard 3.7 as this is for wastewater pipes. I didn't think that a rainwater pipe was a wastewater pipe. If you read the standard it says that it applies when they go into a wastewater system but why would it need to be sealed like a wastewater pipe as it is just rainwater.

 

2. They could see the steps, this is just stupid. they are built from blockwork, concrete and concrete slabs and obviously not temporary.

 

3. The door has intumescent seals and a closer on it, it is clearly a fire door.

 

4. Fair enough

 

5. The approved plans had a stone gable vent on them, it's not there, I don;t know why not. I don't see why it would be needed.

 

6. Done and provided

 

7. I am checking this rule, I can fit another one if necessary.

 

8. I am not sure why this is an issue, it is on the first floor.

 

9. Annoyed, no one told me.

 

[AliG]

Got the door fire certificate, working my way down the list.

[ProDave]

I believe each floor needs an "accessible" bathroom, hence the door width.

[AliG]

Thanks, the first floor has accessible toilets, however the games room above the garage is accessed through a different stair so is its own floor.

 

However, there was no requirement as far as I can see for it to have a WC at all. I just thought it would be handy up there.

 

According to the technical standards 3.12.3

 

"A dwelling should have at least 1 accessible WC, or waterless closet, and wash hand basin and at least 1 accessible shower or bath.

These sanitary facilities should be located on the principal living level of a dwelling and be of a size and form that allows unassisted use, in privacy, by almost any occupant. This should include use by a person with mobility impairment or who uses a wheelchair, albeit with limited manoeuvring space within the sanitary accommodation.

An additional accessible toilet may be needed on the entrance level of a dwelling where this is not also the principal living level (see clause 4.2.10)."

 

The house has 6 WCs, this is the only one that has a less than 800mm door. It seems to me to it would be an odd reading of the rules to insist that it too was over 800mm wide.

 

Luckily it is a stud wall so it can be changed, but it seems ridiculous if they insist on this.

[ProDave]

Contest it with your building inspector and ask him to show you where it says it needs to be accessible.  Are they classing your games room as an "apartment"?

 

I had an issue with the last house where they tried to tell me the landing must have an 1100mm high handrail. I contested it so my BC inspector said they would clarify it with the Scottish Government.  Many weeks later they confirmed it indeed did only need to be 900mm high.

[Temp]

5 hours ago, AliG said:

1. There is a down pipe that goes through the garage. I don't understand the reference to Technical standard 3.7 as this is for wastewater pipes. I didn't think that a rainwater pipe was a wastewater pipe. If you read the standard it says that it applies when they go into a wastewater system but why would it need to be sealed like a wastewater pipe as it is just rainwater.

 

I note they refer to sealed joints. Does this rainwater pipe go to a soakaway or into the sewer? If it goes into the sewer they might be worried about sewer gasses coming back up and leaking into the garage. Sewer gasses can contain methane and low oxygen levels (explosion and suffocation risk). 

 

 

 

[Temp]

5 hours ago, AliG said:

9.          Final drain test at rear of house failed on the 4 April 2014, no further test has been carried out since (08/04783/ERECT)

 

That may take some finding. Perhaps get yourself a pressure test kit.

http://www.pavingexpert.com/drain11.html

[AliG]

Thanks @Temp that is a good point, but as far as my reading of technical standard 3.7 goes it is only for wastewater pipes and this is a rain water pipe which is what I will put back to them. If I have to the pipes can be changed but it seems pointless. Thinking about it surely a rainwater pipe effectively vents to the outside anyway even if it passes through the house, but I can see this argument. It is not a combined system, but it does eventually enter the sewer system.

 

I have already arranged a builder to come and do a new pressure test, my hope is it was just a bad test. I also called the people who built my conservatory. They could not find records of the test but are going to try and find out why it failed and sound like if it needs fixed they will try to do so.

 

I don't know how much I can push back on BC, some if these issues seem an extreme reading of the rules and notably that it is almost impossible to get anyone on the phone to speak to them.

Edited October 18, 2017 by AliG

[Temp]

Just now, AliG said:

Thanks @Temp that is a good point, but as far as my reading of technical standard 3.7 goes it is only for wastewater pipes and this is a rain water pipe which is what I will put back to them. If I have to the pipes can be changed but it seems pointless.

 

So there aren't any joints in the pipe?

 

Joints in rainwater pipes aren't designed to be gas tight (the wind will just blow it away) but indoor waste water pipes have rubber seals.

[AliG]

There are joints, they are glued together, not with rubber seals, it might be reasonably easy to change the part of the pipe inside for a sealed one if necessary. You make a fair point that sewer gas could come back up the pipe, my argument was that as the top of the pipe is open to the outside where it attaches to the gutter then this is the path of least resistance so it would seem unlikely that gas would leak into the garage. I spoke to the architect and builder of my new house who had never come across this issue, but I will put your point back to them as it makes sense.

[AliG]

I got my wife to send a picture.

 

I thought that maybe I could buy replacement downpipes that had rubber seals but they don't seem to exist.

 

I think I can use one of these, a 68mm square rainwater to 110mm soil pipe adaptor at each end and then run 110mm soil pipe  through the garage. This would give rubber seals within the garage.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-rainwater-adaptor-110mm/38593?kpid=38593&ds_rl=1245250&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIveO42Pv61gIVg7vtCh1POwsmEAQYBSABEgI0VvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CPTd7uP7-tYCFWWr7QodRpADEg#product_additional_details_container

 

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, AliG said:

I got my wife to send a picture.

 

I thought that maybe I could buy replacement downpipes that had rubber seals but they don't seem to exist.

 

I think I can use one of these, a 68mm square rainwater to 110mm soil pipe adaptor at each end and then run 110mm soil pipe  through the garage. This would give rubber seals within the garage.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-rainwater-adaptor-110mm/38593?kpid=38593&ds_rl=1245250&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIveO42Pv61gIVg7vtCh1POwsmEAQYBSABEgI0VvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CPTd7uP7-tYCFWWr7QodRpADEg#product_additional_details_container

 

 

 

Sounds like the standard solution to this problem.  We had an extension where the main roof downpipe ended up being boxed inside a corner of the extension.  The building inspector insisted that this pipe be a bit of 110mm soil pipe, so that it had proper seals, even though it was running to a soakaway.  I think the logic is that rainwater downpipe never seals properly at the joints, even if glued, and a blockage at the lower end could result in water running inside the extension.

[AliG]

So looking at the picture, we attach one of the adaptors to the square rainwater pipe at each end. I am guessing the  tails of the rainwater pipe might have to be replaced with longer pieces.

 

Then at the left hand side two 90 degree bends which should take us to the wall above the garage door. At the right hand side another 90 degree bend and a straight pipe in between.

 

My only slight concern is that it might be difficult to get the bend tight enough to the wall for the pipe not to end up floating in mid air.

 

Now to figure out why I am being asked for a gable vent.

 

The construction is warm roof, but there is an empty attic space between the roof and the room, would it need to be ventilated? My architect thought this was very odd.

 

Now I think about it, the building is one and there quarter storeys, I wonder if the drawings are showing warm roof, but in fact that is only as far as the ceiling slopes, then it becomes a cold attic above the flat roof that needs to be ventilated.

 

I have never been up there, I will have to go look at the weekend. This is when working in London is a real pain.

Edited October 18, 2017 by AliG

[AliG]

OK, I have been up inside the roof of my extension, something I had not done ever as it did not have a normal hatch, instead the hatch was screwed and painted down.

 

I am going to install the extra smoke detector tomorrow morning. I have the builders of my new house putting in a gable vent(after I check that it isn't there and I am not just missing it). I am assuming that the steps as built are fine and I just need a picture. I may or may not have to change the kitchen smoke detector to a heat detector but that is relatively simple.

 

So looking at the original list of 9 items I have just two things outstanding, the others have been done or will be in the next few days. 

 

1.            The rain water pipe at the front of elevation has been duct through the garage.  The rain water pipe requires to be waste quality and sealed joints. (Technical Standard 3.7)

9.          Final drain test at rear of house failed on the 4 April 2014, no further test has been carried out since (08/04783/ERECT)

 

 

1. I have looked at the pipes and have a way of considering it to wastewater pipe, but I am going to speak to BC on Monday before I do anything. Firstly technical standard 3.7 applies to wastewater and this is a surface water pipe. Secondly the pipe is really well sealed, it would actually be hard to dismantle and I think more likely to create leaks than improve them. Anyway, I will see what they say.

 

9. I really don't understand this,  I have attached a plan of the conservatory here. They added round a 2m extension to the existing rainwater pipes at each side of the conservatory. I spoke to a builder and he didn't even know what you could test. The best we could come up with was put a balloon down the pipes and test the new bit but this is just a small run of pipe barely worth testing.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by AliG

[AliG]

I think I am almost done, after 5 tests the drain has passed.

 

However, BC decided that it has been such a disaster they wanted to check the other of the two drains that were added. It failed. The conservatory company, although they are originally responsible for the problem have been very good in putting guys on digging it all up and fixing it.

 

I am meeting the BC officer next Friday and I think it will all get signed off. They have been incredibly helpful, I really cannot fault them other than it is hard to contact them. In flat I think I will send in a letter of thanks as I am sure all they normally get is complaints.