Rules for digging up the mains

[jpadie]

Hello all

I found I'd lost 17litres of water overnight between the meter and the stopcock over night (stopcock shut off).  I'm thinking the best place to start looking for issues is at the meter since the MDPE comes in directly to the house and does not appear to be compromised at the house end.  

 

The meter is just outside the curtilage of my land.  Are there any regs on whether I can dig it out to inspect?  The meter box is always full of clear water so there is a second reason for starting at that end.  

 

Thanks

Justin 

[joe90]

I had a water leak in my incoming pipe, the water board came and used a listening rod to find the leak which was in the middle of my lawn, they did a temp join fir me and no charge at all despite the leak being on my land. To top it all the water board estimated my usage and deducted what I had lost 👍 (Bristol water). They did say if it happens again because I don’t replace the pipe they will charge next time.

[sharpener]

7 hours ago, jpadie said:

The meter is just outside the curtilage of my land.

 

This makes it the responsibility of the water co as far as your property boundary see your water company's website.

 

Yes it would seem less likely to be a problem at your end of the pipe. Normally they will come out quite quickly and free for a first look so just ask them to do that. If they then determine it is in the Supply Pipe on your side of the boundary they will quote you or you can repair it yourself. (If you have an old lead pipe they will replace it f.o.c. if you remove any lead inside your house at the same time.)

[Conor]

You own from the downstream connection on meter box onwards. The leak is 99% sure to be at the connection/ coupler on the backside of the box, as from that point should be a continuous length to you kitchen stopcock, and should be a single length of MDPE. I'd phone water co and say you think there is a leak at their meter box.

 

Depending on how it was installed, the meter box may have come with a 1-2m tail, then your pipe would have connected with a coupler. Or, your pipe could have gone straight in to the box. Either way, the connection point is the water cos problem. I've seen LOTs of twisted / bent pipes coming out of boxes that continuously leak. 

[jpadie]

Thank you all.  

 

I will give the water company a call and see what's what.   They only started charging last year after fitting the new meter 6 years ago.  So the first bill was huge but seemed to represent more than two baths per day when typically there's only one person in the house most of the year.  

 

Will post back when I hear from southern water.

 

[marshian]

On 02/03/2024 at 07:01, Conor said:

You own from the downstream connection on meter box onwards. The leak is 99% sure to be at the connection/ coupler on the backside of the box, as from that point should be a continuous length to you kitchen stopcock, and should be a single length of MDPE. I'd phone water co and say you think there is a leak at their meter box.

 

Depending on how it was installed, the meter box may have come with a 1-2m tail, then your pipe would have connected with a coupler. Or, your pipe could have gone straight in to the box. Either way, the connection point is the water cos problem. I've seen LOTs of twisted / bent pipes coming out of boxes that continuously leak. 

 

I'm sure you are right but just to say about 25-28 years ago there was a push to get more households off rateable value based water rates and onto meters - one of the incentives offered in my region was pipe coverage from the meter to the house stop cock for as long was we were in the house (it expires on change of ownership) We got a saving of 50% of our previous water costs as a result of fitting a meter. I've been very careful to keep the letter in my water bill history file.

 

It would be interesting if I ever did have a leak to see how the water company would react - my money says that they would say from the meter to the house it's my responsibility but that letter might provide an interesting leverage and whilst I haven't needed it yet I think they'd have trouble backing out of the responsibility.

[joe90]

27 minutes ago, marshian said:

It would be interesting if I ever did have a leak to see how the water company would react - my money says that they would say from the meter to the house it's my responsibility but that letter might provide an interesting leverage and whilst I haven't needed it yet I think they'd have trouble backing out of the responsibility.

See my post above about Bristol water.

[sharpener]

On 02/03/2024 at 07:23, jpadie said:

They only started charging last year after fitting the new meter 6 years ago.  So the first bill was huge but seemed to represent more than two baths per day when typically there's only one person in the house most of the year.  

 

If there is a leak at the connection to the meter it's likely it has been there all along so they might be sympathetic to a request to re-visit past bills based on measured future usage. If to your advantage also try getting them to backdate this to the date the meter was originally fitted not the date they started billiing you on usage.

 

But I wouldn't start down this route until you see what they say after the inspection.

 

OTOH I am pretty sure the WB strained a lead/copper joint when they changed our meter, but they would not acknowledge it even though there was damp and mould behind our kitchen units. In the end I put a strip of inner tube over the pinhole leak, held in place with a jubilee clip. It fixed the problem and was like that when we sold the house some years later.

[sharpener]

57 minutes ago, marshian said:

It would be interesting if I ever did have a leak to see how the water company would react - my money says that they would say from the meter to the house it's my responsibility but that letter might provide an interesting leverage and whilst I haven't needed it yet I think they'd have trouble backing out of the responsibility.

 

Good thinking. I once re-negotiated a pension transfer based on an uplift agreed in a letter I had kept, whereas the company had no record of it, or so they said.

 

I read in yesterday's Economist that an AI chatbot at Air Canada had in 2022 invented an entirely fictitious bereavement policy, but the courts have now ruled that the airline must nevertheless bear the cost of implementing it.

[jpadie]

Update on this is that the water company has refused to get involved as the leak is less than 10L an hour (Thames water). 

The last test we did was 50L over night (12 hours).  Stopcock isolated of course.

 

So now we are stuck with no way to fix the leak it seems.  Cant dig up the meter as it's on public ground. And the leak is unlikely to be on our property as there's a single length of relatively new MDPE from the meter to the stopcock.  

 

Unfortunately there's no visible shut off valve in the meter box (buried in a small inspection chamber).  In my place in France there are isolation valves at both sides of the meter.  

 

Any thoughts other than put on a hi-vis and some old jeans and dig up the connections to the meter?

[Mattg4321]

4 minutes ago, jpadie said:

Update on this is that the water company has refused to get involved as the leak is less than 10L an hour (Thames water). 

The last test we did was 50L over night (12 hours).  Stopcock isolated of course.

 

So now we are stuck with no way to fix the leak it seems.  Cant dig up the meter as it's on public ground. And the leak is unlikely to be on our property as there's a single length of relatively new MDPE from the meter to the stopcock.  

 

Unfortunately there's no visible shut off valve in the meter box (buried in a small inspection chamber).  In my place in France there are isolation valves at both sides of the meter.  

 

Any thoughts other than put on a hi-vis and some old jeans and dig up the connections to the meter?

It would be unusual not to have a valve at the meter in the pavement. Have you got a picture?

[jpadie]

I'm in France today but will take a snap on Monday morning.  

 

The access is a small covering on the verge. About 150mm. Then a polystyrene panel to remove and then the meter under about 200mm of clear water.   I will try pumping out the water to get a clear photo.  

[ProDave]

If it is in a grass verge and there is no tarmac pavement involved I would have no hesitation digging it up to have a look.  Just have some kind of barrier ready to place around the hole if it is going to be left open.

[saveasteading]

On 03/03/2024 at 12:03, sharpener said:

likely it has been there all along so they might be sympathetic 

 

I had that. They tried to say it was my responsibility.  The £1k ish water bill had to be paid and fof the repair.   I was able to prove that it was a rubbish connection by them.

 

I'm saying, joe90s experience was not as mine.

I agree that you call them out , but also that you stand over them 

[jpadie]

On 20/04/2024 at 14:07, Mattg4321 said:

It would be unusual not to have a valve at the meter in the pavement. Have you got a picture?

 

 

As promised here are some pics.  Too large to upload so they're in a Google album.  https://photos.app.goo.gl/FMsGXZprY5Pcg5z78

 

Now that I've pumped the water out I can see the stop cock on the mains side of the meter.  None on the consumer side though.

[ProDave]

 

That spindle is for the stop cock handle.  There is only ever one stopcock. Why would you want 2?

[Mattg4321]

Be interesting to see how quick that fills up with water again...

[jpadie]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

 

That spindle is for the stop cock handle.  There is only ever one stopcock. Why would you want 2?

To isolate each side of the meter.  That's normal where I've been living for 25 years.  

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, jpadie said:

To isolate each side of the meter.  That's normal where I've been living for 25 years.  

Not needed.  worst case a little water drains back from the house pipework if you remove the meter.  But the house stopcock should contain a non return valve.

[jpadie]

Definitely no non return valve at my place. Other than the ones I've installed more recently, and those are only on the inside circuits.   Externals (garden taps and pool taps) are directly connected to the mains.

 

I'm not "allowed" to use the isolation valve on the mains side of the meter.  So need a way to isolate from the meter to the house and garden appliances) in my place on France this is 200m).

 

The UK may be more practical about permission...

[ProDave]

6 minutes ago, jpadie said:

Definitely no non return valve at my place. Other than the ones I've installed more recently, and those are only on the inside circuits.   Externals (garden taps and pool taps) are directly connected to the mains.

 

I'm not "allowed" to use the isolation valve on the mains side of the meter.  So need a way to isolate from the meter to the house and garden appliances) in my place on France this is 200m).

 

The UK may be more practical about permission...

I don't see the problem.  The stopcock is on the supply side of the meter.  In any event it would be the water company removing the meter for any reason so let them worry about isolation for that.

 

As I understand it, your issue is a leak. You need to dig down to the customer side of the meter box to check for your leak there.  If you di find a leak and want to fix it, you turn off the stopcock in the meter box to isolate it.  

[jpadie]

All fine. Thanks.

 

Provided it is permitted in the UK to dig the meter on public land.  Which is where the thread started.