Stonemason day work for lifting up mortar

[MG-Wales]

Hi everyone, just after some quick advice to check if the extra costs I've been told by our brickies do stack up.

 

The stonemasons have finally finished working on the front elevation of our new build house, this is done with 150mm cropped stone (outside of timber frame & surecav) without pointing (too cold/wet for it at the moment). We're really happy with the quality of the work they've done, which was agreed on a m2 rate for labour only and us buying all the material.

 

It was all good until they were working off the ground, however for the work done from the first lift of scaffold up (approx. 40m2 for which they took 7 days for 2-3 stonemasons plus 1-2 labourers) they started complaining and mentioning day work / extra hours they had to put in for lifting all the mortar up because of lack of mechanical lifting. Despite working without a formal contract, I do appreciate all lifting and access is down to me as they are paid for mixing and laying. All the stone was lifted mechanically with a telehandler to a loading bay on the first lift (approx. 24 sqm of wall) and then directly on the top lift (area 16 sqm) together with a decent amount of mixed mortar, but this happened only on 3 of the 7 days for an hour or so at the time so that left the mortar to be lifted manually for the rest of the time.

 

They claim that this operation, which was done with fairly big buckets lifted up to the different levels, took up to 4 hours each day so about 30 hours total, which they want to bill me at £15ph labourer rate (this rate wasn't agreed beforehand). Their labourer are youngsters who are 18-19 years old, so I'm not sure if this is a fair rate, I can see that the average is about £12 and we are in mid Wales (not an expensive part of the country).

 

They say that in all sites they worked on, this is the first one where they didn't have lifting equipment, which I struggle to believe.

I can see private sites not having lifting equipment there all the time, surely this is more common for big sites?

Is it possible that it takes so long to lift mortar up to the first lift and then second lift of the scaffold? I struggle to visualise how it can take hours to move mortar up and down, however I am sure stonework does require quite a lot of mortar. For instance, I think they used about 15-20 bags of cement and a couple of bags of sand for the mixes from the first lift up.

 

I would appreciate some advice from more expert people here. :)

[joe90]

It depends on the wording on their quote, if they presumed you would supply the lifting that’s an error on their part, however what’s the cost to you if they walked off site and you had to find another team to do the work. What’s the extra cost of labour vs hiring mechanical lifting gear ? If your satisfied with their work you may have to suck it up.

[MG-Wales]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

It depends on the wording on their quote, if they presumed you would supply the lifting that’s an error on their part, however what’s the cost to you if they walked off site and you had to find another team to do the work. What’s the extra cost of labour vs hiring mechanical lifting gear ? If your satisfied with their work you may have to suck it up.

There was no mention of lifting on the quote, just the rates for labour. Very old school, but I find many contractors work like this and then is down to me to point out every condition on emails (which I admit wasn't done very thoroughly for this stage, lesson learnt!). My understanding was that heavy lifting, access (scaffold), water, power, would be down to me. I assumed lifting of the stone up the scaffold would be enough so I paid for the telehandler when required to lift 3 bags at a time and just at the very end they mentioned there would be an issue on lifting the mortar up as well.

 

I considered to hire a permanent forklift / telehandler for them to operate, which would have been of similar cost (£600) to these extra they are claiming + the occasional telehandler with driver hire I had instead, but the barrier was the limit for hired plant on my site insurance as these machines cost more than £10K. So yes, I think they are trying to claim some of the money I saved by not having a forklift there for the 2 weeks, but - assuming that theirs is a fair request, as all the stone and some of the mortar was lifted at my expense - I want to make sure I am not overcharged / charged unfairly for it.

 

For instance, for the blockwork part, I only paid out of my own pocket to lift the blocks, all the mortar was lifted up by the bricklayers without extra cost as part of their labour rate.

[nod]

If you have a substantial amount of stonework still to do They have got you by the balls 

If not Just tell them no 

I suspect most of the daywork is to cover time lost with bad weather 

[Russell griffiths]

If they haven’t pointed it yet who’s doing that once you piss them off. 
have a chat and see if you can come to a price halfway. 
 

im not saying they are right, i just think your not in a good place to argue. 
 

Did they presume the forklift would be there always, or was it made clear to them it was only for stone. 
 

if they have more to do i would hire an electric hoist that connects to the scaffolding and can lift up a big bucket. 

Edited February 5 by Russell griffiths

[MG-Wales]

3 hours ago, nod said:

If you have a substantial amount of stonework still to do They have got you by the balls 

If not Just tell them no 

I suspect most of the daywork is to cover time lost with bad weather 

The main stonework bit is finished, there is a small area of stone in the garage which will be built later in the spring / summer, but this could be done by others as well as a dwarf boundary wall.

 

I also suspect it is to make up for time lost, especially during the blockwork part which was slowed down by bad weather back in December.

I don't want to refuse outright as I think they did a good job, but I will try to negotiate if they go too high with their requests.

[MG-Wales]

2 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

If they haven’t pointed it yet who’s doing that once you piss them off. 
have a chat and see if you can come to a price halfway. 
 

im not saying they are right, i just think your not in a good place to argue. 
 

Did they presume the forklift would be there always, or was it made clear to them it was only for stone. 
 

if they have more to do i would hire an electric hoist that connects to the scaffolding and can lift up a big bucket. 

Yes, I agree. I don't want to piss them off, mainly to avoid a bad reputation as a client as they are local like many of my other contractors.

Funny enough, they don't seem to be too keen to take on the pointing at this time. I think it is too weather dependent and I already said that I don't want to pay them on day work for that but I would only agree a fixed price. I might have already pissed them off actually!

 

Has anyone here done the pointing themselves? It seems a meticulous but not particularly difficult job, but maybe it is one of those things one shouldn't even consider trying to do without any experience.

 

When we discussed the lifting at the beginning of the month, it sounded like the forklift for the stone was essential and lifting the mortar was a secondary issue for which "they might get a pulley or something". Only 2 weeks ago - after nothing was done about it - it became a massive issue which was slowing them down significantly.

I suspect they are trying to recover some lost money from earlier in the job (blockwork).

Anyway, if I had to do it again I would definitely do it with a clear agreement on lifting all the material up. As soon as they mentioned the issue, I kept a diary of what was happening of site day after day, so I will check if their breakdown of hours matches what I've been recording and assuming.

 

[nod]

The bricklayers I’m working  with around the sites local to me Haven’t had a decent wage since mid December Probably not worth getting out of bed for the rest of the week 

Most of the sites are paying the Brickies a retainer just to keep them on site Stonework is far work 

I’d be inclined to pay them 

 

[scottishjohn]

I think this shows how important to get a contract  at start  -even ifyou split total build into different sections  as i have 

only way to do  it with such a large job   to me --at least you have a point where you can stop if needed -and or chage contractor 

I certainly have for both first part of the job and now just signed for second part 

Ihave been very happy with my builder - and  contract is a must  so everyone knows whwere they are and when it goes wrong --thats what you would be relying on if its gets legal

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

and  contract is a must  so everyone knows whwere they are and when it goes wrong

+1, some people laughed at my quotes because they were like war and peace but I hate ambiguity and I never had a problem with customers misunderstanding what was included In the price.

[scottishjohn]

six pages ofr detail for second part 

of course with some provisions -- like cost for bathrooms and skitchen -- estimated costs put  inehich i can supply own goods for ,

same goes for ligth fittings etc 

seems a good way to me

[MG-Wales]

4 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

I think this shows how important to get a contract  at start  -even ifyou split total build into different sections  as i have 

only way to do  it with such a large job   to me --at least you have a point where you can stop if needed -and or chage contractor 

I certainly have for both first part of the job and now just signed for second part 

Ihave been very happy with my builder - and  contract is a must  so everyone knows where they are and when it goes wrong --thats what you would be relying on if its gets legal

 

We are doing on a trade by trade basis. The only part for which we felt a contract was needed were the groundworks, as the value of the contract was quite big. Timber frame, windows and PV system were coming with their own T&Cs (which are effectively contracts?), so we could not force anything through but we were at least bound by a set of rules.

For all the other trades (scaffolder, roofer, stove installer, carpenters and bricklayers - that's the list so far) I felt that a few email/messages with inclusions/exclusions/rates on top of (sometimes) a formal quotation would be enough. Everything else, e.g. extra work, I've always discussed and agreed as the work progressed. I've found that many trades try to force some extras at the end, whether it is some extra concrete poured in the foundations, the slates and halves installed on the roof, or the lifting of mortar buckets. I think it is unavoidable unfortunately -  a sort of bad construction practice fee - , but they give it a go as they know that private client tend to pay rather than ending into arguments or disputes. I don't think they can do this with developers/main contractors. I think I will look into minor works contracts for electrician and plumber, as I see these producing a fair bit of extras as the works progress.

[scottishjohn]

15 minutes ago, MG-Wales said:

 

We are doing on a trade by trade basis. The only part for which we felt a contract was needed were the groundworks, as the value of the contract was quite big. Timber frame, windows and PV system were coming with their own T&Cs (which are effectively contracts?), so we could not force anything through but we were at least bound by a set of rules.

For all the other trades (scaffolder, roofer, stove installer, carpenters and bricklayers - that's the list so far) I felt that a few email/messages with inclusions/exclusions/rates on top of (sometimes) a formal quotation would be enough. Everything else, e.g. extra work, I've always discussed and agreed as the work progressed. I've found that many trades try to force some extras at the end, whether it is some extra concrete poured in the foundations, the slates and halves installed on the roof, or the lifting of mortar buckets. I think it is unavoidable unfortunately -  a sort of bad construction practice fee - , but they give it a go as they know that private client tend to pay rather than ending into arguments or disputes. I don't think they can do this with developers/main contractors. I think I will look into minor works contracts for electrician and plumber, as I see these producing a fair bit of extras as the works progress.

Iread and understand exactly what you are saying 

Ihave gone another way with one building contractor in charge and supplying all required trades  and over seeing the whole job .inc electrics and heating system etc .only thing I have to do when they have finished is floor coverings 

I am so far more than happy with what he has and is doing .

 having been inbiz for over 40 years I know that if things go wrong and people get legal ,then only what is written down is what the court will use to makes decisions on .

maybe I,m just lucky with my choice of contractor -- time will tell-he was not the most expensive and started with in a month --so all happy here 

[MG-Wales]

9 hours ago, nod said:

The bricklayers I’m working  with around the sites local to me Haven’t had a decent wage since mid December Probably not worth getting out of bed for the rest of the week 

Most of the sites are paying the Brickies a retainer just to keep them on site Stonework is far work 

I’d be inclined to pay them 

 

Perfectly understand. I think I will pay some of the extra they claim for lifting, but will try to negotiate down whatever they are claiming. I just want to understand what is a fair amount.

Do you know if it is true that bricklayers and stonemasons get 24/7 access to mechanical lifting (forklift/telehandler) in all sites (including private sites) these days?

My worry with forklift hire was the hire cost for days in which they could not work because of bad weather, but even when I enquired about hiring one to finish the job there was a problem with the maximum covered for hired plant by my insurance. Surely this is a common issue?

Next time (if it ever happens again!) I will surely look into electrical hoist hire as Russell Griffiths suggests and agree beforehand all lifting strategy and costs.

 

[scottishjohn]

26 minutes ago, MG-Wales said:

Do you know if it is true that bricklayers and stonemasons get 24/7 access to mechanical lifting (forklift/telehandler) in all sites (including private sites) these days?

they are cheeky to assume such a thing --which again comes down tothem specifyibg that in htier twerms of employment

you could argue that iif its that important a toll they should have thier own --some chance

 sounds like you got alot primadonnas there -next thing they will want to mix the mortar  LOL

Edited February 6 by scottishjohn

[nod]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

they are cheeky to assume such a thing --which again comes down tothem specifyibg that in htier twerms of employment

you could argue that iif its that important a toll they should have thier own --some chance

 sounds like you got alot primadonnas there -next thing they will want to mix the mortar  LOL

Absolutely not 

The last time I saw a brickie on a none private site driving a tele handler was Never 

Unlikely to see them using a dumper 

I would never hire one on a self build and hand the keys to a brickie or anyone else 

If there’s an accident It’s YOU who’s is responsible 

[nod]

6 hours ago, MG-Wales said:

Perfectly understand. I think I will pay some of the extra they claim for lifting, but will try to negotiate down whatever they are claiming. I just want to understand what is a fair amount.

Do you know if it is true that bricklayers and stonemasons get 24/7 access to mechanical lifting (forklift/telehandler) in all sites (including private sites) these days?

My worry with forklift hire was the hire cost for days in which they could not work because of bad weather, but even when I enquired about hiring one to finish the job there was a problem with the maximum covered for hired plant by my insurance. Surely this is a common issue?

Next time (if it ever happens again!) I will surely look into electrical hoist hire as Russell Griffiths suggests and agree beforehand all lifting strategy and costs.

 

I paid the gang I used £50 per day for mixing and carrying from day one 

I could have borrowed a tele handler from a friend With just the transport to and from to pay But I wouldn’t have trusted others to use it 

I’ve seen some bad accidents 

[MG-Wales]

Update on the discussion about the day work with my stonemasons: they were claiming 22 hours total (for the last 7 days of work, so about 3 hours per day) and I've negotiated and settled for 16 hours in the end as there were some bits with the insulation behind the block/stone which they didn't do right and I will need to remediate from the inside. Overall I am happy they didn't claim an extortionate amount and I was able to get something out of it. In the end, I see this as a price to pay for not negotiating a contract and being there all the time to sort out issues with the site - both things would have costed me more in time anyway. First time self-builder, so some lessons learnt for the future stages.