Adsibob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 23 minutes ago, Lofty718 said: Viesmann sell these divicons but they are prohibitively expensive. compared to just using an esbe valve and pump So how much is an esbe valve and pump? And how many of these would I need? Is it one per manifold? Or one per loop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofty718 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) @JohnMo Are you sure your valve is sized correctly? it's very important to get the right KVS value(mine is 1.6). I researched and sized it myself and it spends a lot of time in the mid position so I know it is doing it's job. Look into valve authority it's very important that they are sized for the correct pressure loss/circuit size, esbe has an app that does it for you. 30 minutes ago, Adsibob said: So how much is an esbe valve and pump? And how many of these would I need? Is it one per manifold? Or one per loop? It would be one esbe valve per zone. One valve can do multiple manifolds, in theory you could run the whole house off of one valve and one pump, which is why I said your system would of been cheaper this way. edit - I'm not 100% one valve can do mulitple manifolds, maybe someone more experienced could answer that with more certainty. -No mixers on manifold -No multiple thermostats -No actuators on manifold -Less pumps The esbe actuator you want is an ESBE ARA662 (I got one off ebay for 80 quid) then as mentioned above you would buy a seperate 3 way valve that is sized correctly for the KVS value of the circuit. The valve would be a VRG131 valve they come in about 80 different sizes so it's crucial the valve is sized correctly Edited February 4 by Lofty718 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 This is all fecking complicated. I'm starting to think I should have swallowed the £2000 design fee I was quoted in 2021. Looking back at my emails, the chap I was speaking to said: one zone per floor, Weather Compensation, low temperature heating. I'm not sure what his solution would have been to the two towel rads though. Times like this I wish I was Marty McFly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofty718 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) £2000 for only a design fee would be throwing money away, all it takes is a good engineer. I don't know what he would be charging that 2k for in a domestic property. Say he's on £350 a day that's 5 and a half days of 'work' to do something you can work out for yourself, I designed mine myself and supplied the bits, just paying labour for the installation of it. One zone per floor sounds reasonable, personally i'd probably go with one zone downstairs and one for upstairs. That's how it is in my house. @Adsibob you are in N.London right? I know of a very good engineer that is an expert on Viessmans. He would probably only do quite a large overhaul of the system and wouldn't be cheap Edited February 4 by Lofty718 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 21 minutes ago, Lofty718 said: @Adsibob you are in N.London right? I know of a very good engineer that is an expert on Viessmans. He would probably only do quite a large overhaul of the system and wouldn't be cheap Cheers, I will PM you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 24 minutes ago, Lofty718 said: £2000 for only a design fee would be throwing money away, all it takes is a good engineer. I don't know what he would be charging that 2k for in a domestic property. Say he's on £350 a day that's 5 and a half days of 'work' to do something you can work out for yourself Well this was my thinking entirely. And I thought I could do this: 24 minutes ago, Lofty718 said: I designed mine myself But I was obviously rubbish at it. The system I have works well, but the lack of compatibility between Tado and Viessman and my ignorance of the 4 pipe system being needed to get low temperature heating and my apparently viessmman approved engineer’s failure to point this out to me really f&cked me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofty718 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Adsibob said: Well this was my thinking entirely. And I thought I could do this: But I was obviously rubbish at it. The system I have works well, but the lack of compatibility between Tado and Viessman and my ignorance of the 4 pipe system being needed to get low temperature heating and my apparently viessmman approved engineer’s failure to point this out to me really f&cked me up. Never mind, I've been bitten in many areas too we can't have our eye on the ball on everything It almost happened to me too but I sensed the incompetency of the installer and decided to do some digging myself. The main issue here is not with you but the lack of training and knowledge of most heating engineers in the country. I think it's partly done on purpose though by the manufacturers of boilers. A low temperature heating system will last much longer than one blasting out 70c water and cycling constantly The guy that was about to install my system had the Vaillant logo on his van, but he had never installed Vaillant controls or wiring centres before, he puts them all in with nest's that don't modulate the boiler just turn on/off. Edited February 4 by Lofty718 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Adsibob said: This is all fecking complicated. I'm starting to think I should have swallowed the £2000 design fee I was quoted in 2021. Looking back at my emails, the chap I was speaking to said: one zone per floor, Weather Compensation, low temperature heating. I'm not sure what his solution would have been to the two towel rads though. Times like this I wish I was Marty McFly. the £2k. May have saved all the actuators, extra pumps and hassle so may have cost You nothing extra i like a specification to put out to tender so all contractors quote for the same product, lets you compare apples to apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Lofty718 said: Are you sure your valve is sized correctly? it's very important to get the right KVS value(mine is 1.6). I researched and sized it myself and it spends a lot of time in the mid position so I know it is doing it's job. Look into valve authority it's very important that they are sized for the correct pressure loss/circuit size, esbe has an app that does it for you. Yes it's sized correctly for my kW, flow and delta T. 22mm VRG133, ARA600 actuator, driven by ESBE CUA111 Controller. I used Kvs 6.3. Couldn't find a Kvs of 4 at the time. But I use mostly fully open as I am batch charging at the moment. Flow will start at about 28 at the start of the charge period and slowly increase 3 to 4 degrees as the floor warms up over the next hours. Max temp could go up to 33 on a cold day, so is set to 33 all the time, except at the end of the batch charge and it closes down to fully shut. Currently have it set I get a continuous run of the heat pump for about 8 hrs. When I did a fixed flow of 28 it would sit middle of dial and move about from there depending on flow temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: I am batch charging at the moment What is batch charging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 21 minutes ago, Adsibob said: What is batch charging? Putting a lump of energy into floor over a continuous period, anything from 3 to 10 hrs, then switching off the heating until the next heating period and using the floor to give back the heat to the house - bit like a big storage heater. Example On a day where you need 60kWh of heating to keep house at the temperature you need. You can slowly heat the floor at a rate of 2.5kW for 24hrs or you can put 6kW into the floor for 6 hrs. I do the charge based on some manipulation of thermostat settings and elevated (3 degs hotter than normally needed) weather compensation curve. Today we had 5 degs outside most the day and wet so not much solar gain. Heating went off after 8 hrs when the house hit 20.6 degs, the next hour house temp increased to 21.1, then the next 4 hrs drops to 20.9, then slowly decreases, currently 20.7, the recharge will start again at about 1.30. You need good floor insulation and thick screed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, Adsibob said: This is all fecking complicated. I'm starting to think I should have swallowed the £2000 design fee I was quoted in 2021. Looking back at my emails, the chap I was speaking to said: one zone per floor, Weather Compensation, low temperature heating. I'm not sure what his solution would have been to the two towel rads though. Times like this I wish I was Marty McFly. Here is a nice video showing and describing it very well. The towel rads could be run from the header next to the Esbe mixers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, SimonD said: Here is a nice video showing and describing it very well. The towel rads could be run from the header next to the Esbe mixers. Nice. Particularly the bit when he says: “don’t know if it will work”! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 For those that have WC and UFH that is basically on all the time in winter during the day, circulating water in the UFH with a pretty low delta T, just wondering what the floor feels like underfoot. For example, in my house, the water temperature is higher than one would have in a constantly on system; I think I run mine at about 41C for tiled floors and 34C for wooden floors, so that the heating is quite responsive. This means when the heating has been off for several hours the floor cools down and feels cold, but once it's been on for 90 minutes or so it starts to feel warm, which is quite nice particularly on tiled floors. In a constantly on WC system: what is the average temperature of the water (i know this fluctuates depending on the weather temp, but what's the range?); and what does the floor (both tiled and engineered wood) feel like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Our system is set to 18C in the daytime, 20C in the evening, 16C at night as someone is almost always at home. There is still quite a bit of variability in how the floor feels. Right no its after 2pm so most rooms are well stabilised at the set temperature. Heating probably wont kick in much until the step up to 20C in a few hours. To bare feet.. the Engineered wood floor doesn't feel hot or cold. The stone and tiled area feel slightly cooler. One room with stone floor was obviously calling for heat recently as the floor feels warm. When its very cold outside and the heating is running just about all the floor surfaces feel warm. Possible exception being the carpeted rooms upstairs which you don't really notice much difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofty718 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) In mine it's only UFH over tiles. The flow temperature of the UFH today at 4c is 32c, around 10c it will be 26c With weather comp the floor is usually less warm to the touch than a high temperature system, because the idea is to be constantly replacing the exact amount of heat lost from the building at the lowest attainable temperature Your Viessmann on weather comp with all the insulation you have will likely acheive some really low floor temperatures while keeping the house nice and warm. It will likely behave very differently to your current setup of having high temperature water running down to the UFH blending valve. Edited February 23 by Lofty718 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 23/02/2024 at 22:29, Lofty718 said: Your Viessmann on weather comp with all the insulation you have will likely acheive some really low floor temperatures while keeping the house nice and warm. It will likely behave very differently to your current setup of having high temperature water running down to the UFH blending valve. Yes, I agree that it should be quite different. But the question is how much cheaper to run, if at all. Currently, although we only have high temp output from the boiler, which I know is inefficienct, the heating is only needed in bursts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 4 hours ago, Adsibob said: Yes, I agree that it should be quite different. But the question is how much cheaper to run, if at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) See my gas consumption for last month, heating on for 45 minutes in the morning before we got up and in the evening for an hour, plus any time extra we were cold. house felt too warm and too cold at times we are in a Scotland. This month the weather compensation has been activated from 6am to 11pm house is constantly at an even temp. gas is also used for cooking and HW Edited February 25 by TonyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 (edited) 23 hours ago, TonyT said: See my gas consumption for last month, heating on for 45 minutes in the morning before we got up and in the evening for an hour, plus any time extra we were cold. house felt too warm and too cold at times we are in a Scotland. This month the weather compensation has been activated from 6am to 11pm house is constantly at an even temp. gas is also used for cooking and HW So are you saying there is not much difference, WC giving you a more even temperature at a small, negligible, saving? But what about the savings from converting to high temp output to low temp output? Edited February 26 by Adsibob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Not following, that’s my savings, house is warm all the time and a bit cheaper than what it was when it was on/off controlled, back then it could be too hot and too cold Thats for my house, with my gas boiler. so I’m sure with your recently modernised house you will see savings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofty718 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) The setup he's changed to is identical to mine Edited March 2 by Lofty718 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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