These pipes should be insulated?

[Thorfun]

6 minutes ago, Hastings said:

Rodents can and do eat through anything but copper pipe. That's the reason plumbers I know don't like to use it where pipework is hidden.

sure but in a highly airtight house would a mouse/rodent get in? I'm hoping not!!

[Hastings]

More than in any other type of build, you have to make sure they don't!

Metal, concrete/cement render outer shell might work for a while.

 

Plast ic pipework may be cheaper to install but then make a house more expensive to insure, due to the high prevalence of leak insurance claims from houses with it.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Hastings

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, cherryfountain said:

 I agree with Kelvin .Every joint is a possible leak in the future . Why do plumbers still use copper and fittings for these situations? If the plumber had used Pegler MLCP or Rehau all that could have been done with minimal joints and in half the time.

 

Because it works, and to all intents, lasts a lifetime.

 

I wouldnt entertain anything else. 

[Susie]

1 hour ago, Hastings said:

Plast ic pipework may be cheaper to install but then make a house more expensive to insure, due to the high prevalence of leak insurance claims from houses with it.

Do insurance companies ask if your pipes are copper or plastic?

 

[Hastings]

I don't know but I have read somewhere that they're considering doing so. As well as rodent damage, plastic pipes have been known to soften or go brittle when in contact with some sealants, and fire block mastics. Wiring can suffer the same way when in contact with incompatible materials.

 

But apparently it's errors in assembly of push-fit plastic connectors that causes most leaks.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Hastings

[saveasteading]

We have installed the loop because the furthest room is a long way from the source. it will be pumped only when necessary, with a convenient switch. so it wont be on constantly.

 

Surges do happen. we've a lovely shower but the thermostatic valve has far from an instant reaction.

 

 

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

a PIR to run the HRC when someone enters a room

That seems clever. I need a think about that.

 

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

how much heat from an uninsulated hot pipe would actually get through plasterboard and a skim! surely minimal,

I think that's the point. it isn't heating a useful space, just the void. The void could be a very large space, in volume or area. Could be the warmest space in the house.

I haven't found anything about condensation on the cold, but that wouldn't apply if the hot were insulated.

 

btw that was section 9. there is lots about heat sources before that.

[Iceverge]

18 hours ago, Hastings said:

Rodents can and do eat through anything but copper pipe. That's the reason plumbers I know don't like to use it where pipework is hidden.

 

Do the electricians apply the same thing to wiring with SWA cable?

 

I suspect it has more to do with plumbers charging £3.40 for a 15mm tee of Hep2O and 1 minutes labour, and 70p for a copper tee and 10 minutes labour.

 

It's very hard to convince someone to change when their livelihood depends on it. 

 

 

[Iceverge]

From engineering toolbox . com 

 

A 22mm pipe at 45 Deg delta T will lose 8W/m with 25mm insulation but an uninsulated one will loose 60W/m

 

Say a HRC of 50m running 8 hrs per day. 52W*50m*8hrs is 20.8kWh per day. 

 

At 25p/kWh its about £1900/year of a difference. 

 

Obviously a 15mm pipe will be less and you need to subtract the additional heat generated from your space heating bill to get an idea. 

 

 

 

The key point for me is that an insulated line of 50m would still be £300/year. Design it out and use 10mm pipes and short runs wherever you can. 

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

10 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

From engineering toolbox . com

 

Say a HRC of 50m running 8 hrs per day. 52W*50m*8hrs is 20.8kWh per day. 

 

At 25p/kWh its about £1900/year of a difference. 

 

The key point for me is that an insulated line of 50m would still be £300/year. Design it out and use 10mm pipes and short runs wherever you can.

 

 

Yikes, the key point for me is that I need to pull my finger out to insulate the flow & returns from boiler to the hot water cylinder and ch manifolds central in the house. As I run hot water priority its a greater delta T!

 

 

[Thorfun]

4 hours ago, Iceverge said:

Design it out and use 10mm pipes and short runs wherever you can. 

my HRC is 10mm, the hot pipes are 15mm from manifold to outlet with about 15m being the longest run. I'm sure we'll be fine. 😉 

[saveasteading]

I noticed for the first time this morning, that when i turned on  a certain hot tap, it was warm within seconds, then turned to lukewarm. It's  a good 10m  from the boiler, but i assume is close to the central heating pipe at some point hidden in the wall,   This was all done in our refurb about 5 years ago, and I wasn't supervising much. 

[Iceverge]

5 hours ago, SimonD said:

 

Yikes, the key point for me is that I need to pull my finger out to insulate the flow & returns from boiler to the hot water cylinder and ch manifolds central in the house. As I run hot water priority its a greater delta T!

 

 

 

 

Just double the insulation on the runs to the cylinder. The ones to the CH manifold are surely just acting as "radiators" which is the point surely!?