Total Heating Total Control (THTC) Help

[ColinG]

Hi, I have THTC all electric heating. The storage heaters and hot water are on a lower rate tariff and their charge times are controlled by the RTS signal switch. There are also panel heaters in the bedrooms which are also on the lower rate 24/7 and connected to the same meter as the storage heaters and hot water.  The panel heaters are controlled manually and not by the RTS. All other usage such as lights etc are charged at the standard tariff via a second meter.

The RTS signal is due to be switched off end March 2024 (although there is speculation that this may be delayed) Does anyone know what will happen when the signal is switched off? How will the storage heaters be charged up and also the hot water? Will the panel heaters still work?

[JohnMo]

I have just moved to E7 on a new build. Smart meter is installed, although due to where I live doesn't communicate, so it's a dumb smart meter.

 

It has a day and night rate and I just record the readings manually. This what it looks like, a day and night rate. 

Not sure how you get around for your 24/7 heaters.

[Susie]

hi @ColinG if your on single phase the links below will help but if your 3 phase then I’m not sure if it’s possible yet but as the date is now getting closer I will check. It was supposed to happen years back but the date got changed as they couldn’t do it on time. EDF by the way have not contacted me yet. Who is your supplier?

 

https://www.edfenergy.com/energywise/RTS-planned-shutdown

https://www.edfenergy.com/large-business/talk-power/blogs/radio-teleswitch-service-shutdown

[ColinG]

Hi, I'm with octopus who unfortunately know nothing about the THTC system. The official date for RTS shutdown is end March 2024 but there is speculation on line that this may be extended due to the number of meters still reliant on RTS. My query is about whether my heating will still work when the RTS is switched off.

[ProDave]

The issue is "the long wave goodbye"  The old BBC Long Wave transmitter that broadcast the radio tele switch command is in borrowed time.  It is old technology, huge valves used in the transmitter are no longer available.  The BBC bought up all the spares it can find and it is reputed to be running on the last working pair, being run at reduced power to try and eek out the last bit of life from them.  

 

You would think the solution is to switch all off peak tariff users to a smart meter.  Surely a smart meter has bidirectional communication so that can be used to do the rate switching.  At last an actual technical reason why in some cases a smart meter might be better for a consumer.  But it still won't help those too remote for a smart meter to communicate.

 

It would mean all customers with THTC first switching to ordinary economy 10 or economy 7.  They would lose the only advantage of THTC, the 24/7 cheap rate for heating appliances.  But THTC has so many other issues like it has become very expensive, and is considered "complex metering" so most energy suppliers won't take you on and you are stuck with one or perhaps 2?

 

I bet there are a few technical bods, worried that if these last 2 working valves fail, it all might end sooner than anticipated and that will leave a problem to solve quickly.

[SteamyTea]

The E7 timings are programmed into my meter. 

The only reason I bothered to get the meter changed was because EDF said the old radio single one was going to be turned off in a few weeks time (was back in May).

 

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The E7 timings are programmed into my meter. 

The only reason I bothered to get the meter changed was because EDF said the old radio single one was going to be turned off in a few weeks time (was back in May).

 

Are only getting 02:30 to 07:30 on E7? 

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Are only getting 02:30 to 07:30 on E7? 

I think I get an hour thrown in before midnight.  I am usually asleep by then.

It was that hour I initially locked out with secondary timers as it seemed pointless.  I only use 4 hours of the E7 window at most and I think I can get away with using just 3 of them.

 

[dpmiller]

^ yep, E7 timing is preprogrammed into our dual-rate meters over in NIE land too

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> I'm with octopus who unfortunately know nothing about the THTC system.

 

FWIW I've found Octopus's telephone call centre to be much better than the email centre.

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> I'm with octopus who unfortunately know nothing about the THTC system.

 

FWIW I've found Octopus's telephone call centre to be much better than the email centre.

Me also, if I need something sorted I always call them

[Susie]

I rang EDF today and they have put me on the list for technician to come out and fit a smart meter. I think a year or so ago maybe longer there was a shortage of three phase smart meters hopefully things have changed. I presume they have SIM cards in and that’s also going to be the problem as the signal near the meter cupboard’ is rubbish. 
I don’t know what THTC is. My storage heaters are on a separate circuit so in theory I think I could put a Shelly switch or something similar on the circuit at the CU. My hot water cylinder is on a time clock so that should still work ok. I can’t remember the make but I know it’s not obvious the time clock. On the outside you see the boost and a 24 hr dial marked at two points for summer winter time difference on 1 hr. You remove this  front panel and inside is where you program your off peak hours. Your local elec board decides when the off peak hours are but most are not a straight 7 hours they are split e.g, 1 hr and 6hrs or 2 and 5 depending on where you are in the country and when they think the lowest use is. For Cornwall that’s 12 to 1 and 2 till 8 summer and winter. If you have the old switch you can possibly hear a clunck when the circuit is live. The meter cupboard is in the room below my bedroom and as it’s so quiet where I am in the country I often here one at night (12 or 1 or 2) and the one at 8am.  If I hear all three at night I’m finding it very hard to get to sleep planning things in my head. 
 

I will update this when EDF visit. 


 

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, Susie said:

I presume they have SIM cards in and that’s also going to be the problem as the signal near the meter cupboard’ is rubbish

They have a communication module.  The one fitted to my new meter back in July failed within 24 hours.  Took them several months to replace it.  They initially claimed it was an area wide problem, but that was just trying to fob me off.

EDF also, for reasons unknown, tried to change my tariff and billing method, several times.  Then failed to send me a bill for several months.

A smart meter failure I can cope with, the hopeless way it was dealt with I cannot.

[Susie]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

They have a communication module.  The one fitted to my new meter back in July failed within 24 hours.  Took them several months to replace it.  They initially claimed it was an area wide problem, but that was just trying to fob me off.

EDF also, for reasons unknown, tried to change my tariff and billing method, several times.  Then failed to send me a bill for several months.

A smart meter failure I can cope with, the hopeless way it was dealt with I cannot.

I haven’t needed them to do anything other than supply and bill so far. 
im not bothered if it’s not smart so long as I get economy 7.  Most of the house is electric so need to offset high charges with eco 7 by heating, washing machine, dishwasher even bread maker works through the night. 
 

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, Susie said:

I haven’t needed them to do anything other than supply and bill so far. 

Nor had I, until recently.

1 minute ago, Susie said:

not bothered if it’s not smart so long as I get economy 7.

The timer is built in, but you will need to find the right button presses to get to the billing menu.  They did an update on mine and the menu changed.

[ColinG]

On 23/11/2023 at 19:50, ProDave said:

The issue is "the long wave goodbye"  The old BBC Long Wave transmitter that broadcast the radio tele switch command is in borrowed time.  It is old technology, huge valves used in the transmitter are no longer available.  The BBC bought up all the spares it can find and it is reputed to be running on the last working pair, being run at reduced power to try and eek out the last bit of life from them.  

 

You would think the solution is to switch all off peak tariff users to a smart meter.  Surely a smart meter has bidirectional communication so that can be used to do the rate switching.  At last an actual technical reason why in some cases a smart meter might be better for a consumer.  But it still won't help those too remote for a smart meter to communicate.

 

It would mean all customers with THTC first switching to ordinary economy 10 or economy 7.  They would lose the only advantage of THTC, the 24/7 cheap rate for heating appliances.  But THTC has so many other issues like it has become very expensive, and is considered "complex metering" so most energy suppliers won't take you on and you are stuck with one or perhaps 2?

 

I bet there are a few technical bods, worried that if these last 2 working valves fail, it all might end sooner than anticipated and that will leave a problem to solve quickly.

Do you know what would happen to the panel heaters and hot water immersion boost should the RTS signal stop. These are on the low rate 24/7 and are connected to the Horstman THTC meter. However they are controlled by us from within the house rather than by the RTS. Will they stop working?

 

[ProDave]

The panel heaters would continue working and continue to be metered on their own cheap rate meter.

 

What would stop working is the rate switching of the main meter, and the switching on of the storage heaters when it should be off peak rate.  As that is all embeded in the suppliers metering, there would not be much you could do about it yourself.

[ColinG]

Thanks. one option I'm thinking about is replacing the storage heaters with normal radiators and having them wired up to the same meter as the panel heaters. I'm hoping that the official RTS switch off date of end March next year will be put back by at least a year which will give me more time to decide what to do. My supplier is Octopus and they have been no help at all. They have told me that their meter engineers cannot touch a THTC meter set up and that I will need to get an electrician to rewire it before they can fit a new meter. 

[SteamyTea]

42 minutes ago, ColinG said:

They have told me that their meter engineers cannot touch a THTC meter set up and that I will need to get an electrician to rewire it before they can fit a new meter. 

EDF put a smart meter in for me, and I have E7.

 

I do wish companies would not use the terms Engineer and Electrician interchangeably.

The person who comes around to play with the meter is probably has a technicians certificate.

[ColinG]

I might try moving to EDF. They do have a complex metering team which Octopus do not. I called OVO (SSE) and was told they will not take any further THTC customers.

[Susie]

Is THTC different to Economy 7

on economy 7 you have one meter with one mpan number for one supply. 
one meter number with two counters one for day use one for night.

 

I think with THTC you have two mpan numbers for 2 supplies is this correct?

Is that also two standing charges?

 

if so then the RTS switch is controlling  a single supply on or off and what a THTC user needs to do is cancel one supply and add a new circuit on to the other supply which has the storage heaters on it.  Presumably it is then not just a minor works certification and it could involve the upgrading of the CU to RCBO’s etc an extra cost and inconvenience rather than somebody on economy 7 who most likely already has the storage heaters on one circuit on one CU

 

Am I right, nearly right or totally wrong?

trying to learn how the RTS switch effects us all?

 

 

 

[Susie]

EDF website now says the end date for the RTS signal is delayed again till end of March 2025

good job as they still haven’t been in touch about a smart meter for me. 

[SteamyTea]

10 hours ago, Susie said:

EDF website now says the end date for the RTS signal is delayed again till end of March 2025

good job as they still haven’t been in touch about a smart meter for me. 

They are lying (expletive deleted).  The insisted that I had a smart meter fitted as the signal was about to be turned off a year ago.

I am now having all sorts of 'billing' problems with EDF.  Got to the stage that they are refusing to contact me now as they say the 'complaint is resolved', but they are still posting me bills every few days.  One was for one days usage (£1.49).

I am going to put another complaint in today, 3^rd this week, not as I have anything else to do.

[JohnMo]

Life is to short - move. I even tried to move to EDF at one point and that became to difficult, the saving I could have made were not worth it.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

the saving I could have made were not worth it.

That is the real problem.

As much as I like Octopus trying out different tariffs, I don't want to be spending time check every time the tariff gets changed to save just a few quid a year.

At least complaining will get me an another £50 quid off my bill.  Which is about 5 times the savings I can make.