First time self-build

[Gus Potter]

10 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Right to light is not taken into account by planning IIRC.

Hi Mike.

 

In Scotland under the planning regs there is a bit that covers the stuff in BRE 209.

13 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

If they have not allowed you to make appropriate measurement they will get less out of the judge one would hope.

I agree.. if they are not honest or try and cause delay without evidence it will go against them.

 

If it was me developing this site I would make sure I had a complete evidence based grasp on the situation, present that to an insurer, get insurance and cart on with the build.

 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

OK believe it or not this is making good progress.

 

>>> the solicitor is from an established firm that have several offices in south east, qualified in the past 3-4 years.

 

OK this is perhaps the best situation as the partners should be keen to preserve their firm's professional reputation without being too important to speak to a residential client. You should have a copy of the Law Society TA6 form (see section 2 Disputes and complaints) which the seller completed to inform you (and your solicitor) of the circumstances surrounding the plot and/or in the 'replies to enquiries' whether there were any disputes - current or historical. If the seller said 'no' then you have a very big legal point in your favour as it implies proof that the seller may have been acting fraudulently. If your solcitor didn't use the TA6 or didn't ask in enquiries then they are at fault. Anyway, call the solicitor, describe the problem, ask them to check the enquiries etc, and then ask them to discuss with the relevant partner and to get back to you with their proposed solution. You really want them to (a) accept their omission (failure to enquire re disputes) and/or (b) to blame the other side for not revealing the info when requested. Either way, you want them to accept at least some responsibility for resolving the problem rather than turning it into a big fee earner for their litigations department. Also, tell them that you've asked both the neighbour and the seller for the history, the measurement detail, and the consultant's report and both parties have refused to give you the information. Hopefully they'll at least commit to a letter or two at their cost (or at least low cost). Now the solicitor may want control, not unreasonably, so you may need to negotiate which letters you will write and which they will do. Make it clear, of course, that you want to resolve the dispute in as economical way as possible.

 

>>> The plot is an infill, in a city. So the proposed development is within 1-2m from the neighbour.

 

From the planning docs filed on your LPA portal and maybe the judicious use of a laser measure, photography etc, you should be able to get the approximate right-to-light setup. Draw that up, send to the neighbour and ask them to confirm. You are wanting to (a) demonstrate that you are trying to resolve the situation and (b) move the conversation from vague legal points to practical resolution.

 

>>> The right to light issue is unknown, as either sides have not shared details. 

 

Well the objective is to bring some transparency and move it towards resolution. Either you or your lawyer should ask both parties again formally to give you all the details, history, docs etc, with a time limit, and point out their potential liability if they refuse to do so.

 

 

Gus is right (you'll find Gus always gives very good guidance) - you want to move the conversation with the neighbour to one about standards, measurements etc - that is, how you're going to practically resolve the situation to (at least partially) suit both parties. Send the neighbour a copy of the standard for them to chew over. You want them to change their tack and work with you to resolve the situation.

 

 

You need to do the dull work here, document everything, contemporaneous notes, lots of detail. Use tracked letter (preferably) or email (except possibly the initial conversation with your solicitors) - so it's all documented. (You can follow up a call with your solicitors (or anyone else) with a 'confirmation email' so the call gets documented.) Be super polite and friendly but firm with all parties and assume that any communication you make may be 'read out in court' and shouldn't embarrass or provide negative evidence. Tread softly, you may get one of the other parties to embarrass themselves - for instance, the neighbour may reveal that they'll do anything in their power to stop you building and/or refuse to help you achieve a negotiated result. Excellent, document that.

 

 

p.s. you may wonder at the documentation and formal letter thing. Partly this is practical - you may want to use this in legal argument and/or court. Partly, it is a signalling thing - you want to give the impression that (a) you know what you're doing and are determined to get a resolution and (b) they're not going to be able to pull the wool over your eyes or get you to back down with vague threats and/or the refusal to provide information. Lastly, it is helpful in court and to combat the other side's lawyers (it shouldn't come to that) to demonstrate your good conduct and that the other side is demonstrating bad conduct - i.e. you are doing everything in your power to resolve the issue amicably and avoid a formal legal process.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Alan Ambrose

[saveasteading]

The SE is correct that you must use the mature tree height.

The foundations are then calculated according to distance, so the nearest part gets deeper footings and the farthest gets less.  The guidelines are clear as long as you are certain of the ground structure. 

I wouldn't consider screw piles. I see them as for temporary  structures. An option is pads and beams and a suspended floor.

 

As suggested  above,  ask for a quote for the design of a more sophisticated (cheaper) solution. Sometimes you need a second opinion on clever options  ie getting the SE boss to look at it.

 

But sometimes you just have to accept that 2m+ deep footings are the optimum.

[Mr Punter]

My  input:

 

Right to Light

I believe they would need to apply for an injunction or damages.  If their claim was not valid as their light was not sufficiently diminished they may be liable for both parties costs, which may put them off.

 

Party Wall

Just suck it up and appoint a Party Wall Surveyor to issue the notices.  The neighbour will probably also appoint a surveyor and you will pay for both.  Budget £1,500.

 

Foundations

As above, strip footings are often cheaper.  You may need to do them in sections.  If your SE is local he should have a decent idea what works.  Also it is worth talking to Building Control to see what is typical in the area.

[joe90]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Also it is worth talking to Building Control to see what is typical in the area.

Our BC officer decided on trench width and depth fir us as he was local and knew the ground (so cost nothing 👍)

[moncchichi]

On 13/11/2023 at 22:57, Gus Potter said:

Ok let's assume they do. Now lets delve a bit deeper into how you put something together.

 

I said earlier that "It sounds brutal but if they have made alterations without consent then these don't count.."

 

You may need to force their hand... but if you do then you need to do a bit more homework.

 

Who decides the amount of light you are entitled to, how do they measure it and then judge what is a reasonable loss of light?

 

We all have to live together so as development occurs some light is inevitably lost. Take London and say the Shard.. it casts a big shaddow.. some folk somewhere must be getting a little less light! But how do you decide what is a little less or swinging the lead?

 

I have attached BRE 209 which I think is publically available. Start at page 15 Clause 2.2.7 and then read around.  This bit deals with when you are pretty close to a boundary.

 

This could be the key bit of info you need in that there is recognition that a lot of development results in a certain loss of light.

 

In summary if you can tailor your design to comply with the recommendations of BRE 209 then your neighbour would have to put forward a counter arguement.. which could be expensive for them as they would have to come up with why they disagree with the BRE.  I use this as in Scotland and it is referenced in the Scottish planning regs.. so you should find reference  in the UK regs as the BRE serves all the UK. Also they would need to fesse up as to what they have been doing next door! If the loss of light impacts a bathroom for example .. then the game changes.

 

If you can get a design that say complies with the recommendations in the BRE then you have strengthend your hand. But to cover yourself you could take out an indemnity policy to cover potential action by your neighbours. Ask your solicitor what this would cost for that piece of mind. You would need to jump through some hoops insurance wise, get someone to translate BRE 209 in numbers with a report.

 

If they did decide to kick up a fuss and find out your insurance is going to cover the costs.. up to them if they want to lose their shirt if their case fails. If they win then you should be covered if you set the policy up right.. which will take a good bit of your time to explain to an insurer what the risk is you want them to cover... hence the homework.

 

BE CAREFUL.. for these types of indemnity policies to be effective you must often not alert a potential complainant. A good example here is where you have converted your attic without BC / planning permission. If you let the council know that you have a problem and then take out the policy there is fine print that can make it invalid.

 

@moncchichi be careful not to identify yourself or your site on BH which is a public forum.

 

Hope this helps and keep us updated as  to how you are getting on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BRE 209 Site Layout Planning for Daylight and Sunlight BRE 2022.pdf 9.38 MB · 6 downloads

Thank you, really appreciate the info.

 

This BRE209 standard was used for assessing the daylight and sunlight. I did not know that the same assessment can be applied for right to light. I know that the right to light also accounts for non habitable rooms.

 

With regards to insurance, I did already consider this but the right to light specialist did not think it was an option since the dispute already involved solicitors and court. But I will explore that option once the right to light results and the report comes through.
 

Will keep you posted.

[moncchichi]

On 13/11/2023 at 23:16, MikeSharp01 said:

Right to light is not taken into account by planning IIRC.

 

Just keep very good notes of everything as in the end it could end up at court where you neigbour can request compensation. If they have not allowed you to make appropriate measurement they will get less out of the judge one would hope.

I would hope so too. This is already their second chance, first with the previous owner and now me, so I am hoping that the judge would also take this into consideration.

[moncchichi]

On 13/11/2023 at 23:35, Gus Potter said:

Hi Mike.

 

In Scotland under the planning regs there is a bit that covers the stuff in BRE 209.

I agree.. if they are not honest or try and cause delay without evidence it will go against them.

 

If it was me developing this site I would make sure I had a complete evidence based grasp on the situation, present that to an insurer, get insurance and cart on with the build.

 

 

I have read that right to light insurance can be quite pricey, starting from £7000 and only really considered on a commercial level. Not sure if anyone in BH has taken out right to light insurance before?

[moncchichi]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:11, Alan Ambrose said:

OK believe it or not this is making good progress.

 

>>> the solicitor is from an established firm that have several offices in south east, qualified in the past 3-4 years.

 

OK this is perhaps the best situation as the partners should be keen to preserve their firm's professional reputation without being too important to speak to a residential client. You should have a copy of the Law Society TA6 form (see section 2 Disputes and complaints) which the seller completed to inform you (and your solicitor) of the circumstances surrounding the plot and/or in the 'replies to enquiries' whether there were any disputes - current or historical. If the seller said 'no' then you have a very big legal point in your favour as it implies proof that the seller may have been acting fraudulently. If your solcitor didn't use the TA6 or didn't ask in enquiries then they are at fault. Anyway, call the solicitor, describe the problem, ask them to check the enquiries etc, and then ask them to discuss with the relevant partner and to get back to you with their proposed solution. You really want them to (a) accept their omission (failure to enquire re disputes) and/or (b) to blame the other side for not revealing the info when requested. Either way, you want them to accept at least some responsibility for resolving the problem rather than turning it into a big fee earner for their litigations department. Also, tell them that you've asked both the neighbour and the seller for the history, the measurement detail, and the consultant's report and both parties have refused to give you the information. Hopefully they'll at least commit to a letter or two at their cost (or at least low cost). Now the solicitor may want control, not unreasonably, so you may need to negotiate which letters you will write and which they will do. Make it clear, of course, that you want to resolve the dispute in as economical way as possible.

 

>>> The plot is an infill, in a city. So the proposed development is within 1-2m from the neighbour.

 

From the planning docs filed on your LPA portal and maybe the judicious use of a laser measure, photography etc, you should be able to get the approximate right-to-light setup. Draw that up, send to the neighbour and ask them to confirm. You are wanting to (a) demonstrate that you are trying to resolve the situation and (b) move the conversation from vague legal points to practical resolution.

 

>>> The right to light issue is unknown, as either sides have not shared details. 

 

Well the objective is to bring some transparency and move it towards resolution. Either you or your lawyer should ask both parties again formally to give you all the details, history, docs etc, with a time limit, and point out their potential liability if they refuse to do so.

 

 

Gus is right (you'll find Gus always gives very good guidance) - you want to move the conversation with the neighbour to one about standards, measurements etc - that is, how you're going to practically resolve the situation to (at least partially) suit both parties. Send the neighbour a copy of the standard for them to chew over. You want them to change their tack and work with you to resolve the situation.

 

 

You need to do the dull work here, document everything, contemporaneous notes, lots of detail. Use tracked letter (preferably) or email (except possibly the initial conversation with your solicitors) - so it's all documented. (You can follow up a call with your solicitors (or anyone else) with a 'confirmation email' so the call gets documented.) Be super polite and friendly but firm with all parties and assume that any communication you make may be 'read out in court' and shouldn't embarrass or provide negative evidence. Tread softly, you may get one of the other parties to embarrass themselves - for instance, the neighbour may reveal that they'll do anything in their power to stop you building and/or refuse to help you achieve a negotiated result. Excellent, document that.

 

 

p.s. you may wonder at the documentation and formal letter thing. Partly this is practical - you may want to use this in legal argument and/or court. Partly, it is a signalling thing - you want to give the impression that (a) you know what you're doing and are determined to get a resolution and (b) they're not going to be able to pull the wool over your eyes or get you to back down with vague threats and/or the refusal to provide information. Lastly, it is helpful in court and to combat the other side's lawyers (it shouldn't come to that) to demonstrate your good conduct and that the other side is demonstrating bad conduct - i.e. you are doing everything in your power to resolve the issue amicably and avoid a formal legal process.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, appreciate your input and time.

 

The seller’s solicitor did provide a dispute form so I don’t think there is anything I can hold the seller against, unless they have tried to hide something by not providing the report. But yes, if the situation escalates then I will be going back to the solicitor.

 

I can see that from the planning correspondence, the neighbour have raised discrepancies with the measurements and the accuracy of the daylight and assessment (they also seem to be well versed on the BRE standards). Not sure if it was with merit or whether they were just throwing whatever they can to challenge and object the planning.

 

So far I have only communicated with the neighbours verbally but have recently provided them with my home address as a contact point. So any further contact will be formal and I hope this will encourage them to provide me with the details I need to try and move this forward.

 

 

[moncchichi]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:56, saveasteading said:

The SE is correct that you must use the mature tree height.

The foundations are then calculated according to distance, so the nearest part gets deeper footings and the farthest gets less.  The guidelines are clear as long as you are certain of the ground structure. 

I wouldn't consider screw piles. I see them as for temporary  structures. An option is pads and beams and a suspended floor.

 

As suggested  above,  ask for a quote for the design of a more sophisticated (cheaper) solution. Sometimes you need a second opinion on clever options  ie getting the SE boss to look at it.

 

But sometimes you just have to accept that 2m+ deep footings are the optimum.

Thanks 

 

I have now assumed 2m trench but still pondering whether other piling options should still be a consideration. The cost is about the same but I am aware that the piling depth can be unpredictable which can drive up the cost.

[Ferdinand]

This is interesting.

 

I also note that the Law Commission reviewed reforming this area of law in 2014, and that that document contains much useful detail about the current law.

 

It is here, and attached:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7dac39ed915d2acb6ed74c/44872_HC_796_Law_Commission_356_WEB.pdf

 

This has made me reflect on a Right to Light issue I may potentially face (2 story extension on a house face to face to an extension the neighbour built right on the boundary nearly 20 years ago). I might add a question here, since it is an adjacent point, or do a separate thread.

 

Ferdinand

44872_HC_796_Law_Commission_356_WEB.pdf

 

 

[moncchichi]

On 14/11/2023 at 14:24, Mr Punter said:

My  input:

 

Right to Light

I believe they would need to apply for an injunction or damages.  If their claim was not valid as their light was not sufficiently diminished they may be liable for both parties costs, which may put them off.

 

Party Wall

Just suck it up and appoint a Party Wall Surveyor to issue the notices.  The neighbour will probably also appoint a surveyor and you will pay for both.  Budget £1,500.

 

Foundations

As above, strip footings are often cheaper.  You may need to do them in sections.  If your SE is local he should have a decent idea what works.  Also it is worth talking to Building Control to see what is typical in the area.

Thanks.

 

I’m afraid they would not be put off with the time and cost, just based on what had happened with the previous owner.

 

I was only trying to avoid serving party wall in case this would result in long delays and costs. I read in BH someone getting a bill of £10k because the neighbour challenged everything which used a substantial amount of the party wall surveyors time. Hopefully they will be more reasonable!

 

I have now contacted building controls. Will try to get an idea of what they would accept for the foundation.

[Gus Potter]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:11, Alan Ambrose said:

Gus is right (you'll find Gus always gives very good guidance) - you want to move the conversation with the neighbour to one about standards, measurements etc - that is, how you're going to practically resolve the situation to (at least partially) suit both parties. Send the neighbour a copy of the standard for them to chew over. You want them to change their tack and work with you to resolve the situation.

Alan.. what a brilliant post and thanks for the compliment. I posted based on what I know from the design / engineering side. You have just fleshed out the part of it in legal terms and more importantly the procedure you can follow.. big learning curve for me / stuff I didn't know about. You explain well how to execute an effective strategy... off to read your post again.

 

Thanks again for spending time writing.

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

4 hours ago, moncchichi said:

I have now contacted building controls. Will try to get an idea of what they would accept for the foundation.

Why is your SE not helping you here? BC are just there to ensure you comply with the building regs..look at their fine print.. they are not there to give this kind of advice.. the fee you pay them is far too small for them to take on this kind of liabitlity.

 

We as SEs often do bespoke foundations designs.. if you pay us the right fee we can spend extra time putting together a design that will likely save you money. Bespoke designs often take the general BC and NHBC foundation rules and adapt them to suit the site.  Sometimes we don't even take into account the standard BC / NHBC / LABC etc guidance.. yes we can do that as SE's.. we design for safety and movement.. we also carry insurance to underpin that and keep our Clients financially safe. This concept that BC et al are the be all and end all in terms of design knowledge is a misnomer.

 

We at the sharp end (Architects / SE,s etc ) justify our design. It's not up to BC to dictate what we can and can't do provided we can prove our design is applicable to a particular site.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Gus Potter

[moncchichi]

On 16/11/2023 at 02:07, Gus Potter said:

Why is your SE not helping you here? BC are just there to ensure you comply with the building regs..look at their fine print.. they are not there to give this kind of advice.. the fee you pay them is far too small for them to take on this kind of liabitlity.

 

We as SEs often do bespoke foundations designs.. if you pay us the right fee we can spend extra time putting together a design that will likely save you money. Bespoke designs often take the general BC and NHBC foundation rules and adapt them to suit the site.  Sometimes we don't even take into account the standard BC / NHBC / LABC etc guidance.. yes we can do that as SE's.. we design for safety and movement.. we also carry insurance to underpin that and keep our Clients financially safe. This concept that BC et al are the be all and end all in terms of design knowledge is a misnomer.

 

We at the sharp end (Architects / SE,s etc ) justify our design. It's not up to BC to dictate what we can and can't do provided we can prove our design is applicable to a particular site.

 

 

The SE just has not been very helpful or proactive. And at this point in the project I don’t want to have to change SE.

 

I have read that many times, BC ‘decides’ what is acceptable, even when an engineered foundation design was proposed.

 

Can you advise, if the NHBC/LABC guidance or rules are not followed, would this affect the structural warranty?

 

Thank you.

[saveasteading]

17 minutes ago, moncchichi said:

SE just has not been very helpful or proactive.

Some are better than others. It may depend too, on the scope of works yoj uave agreed. The cheapest quote may only allow for a quick calculation,  without iterating alternatives,  or for  any oroject management.

What does your contract say?