Garage Development in Greenbelt/Conservation Area

[phykell]

Hi,

I've just had an extension completed after a great deal of wrangling with the LPA and managed to achieve a slightly less than 50% increase in volume. I now want to demolish my existing garage and build a 50% larger version to the corner of my plot but the LPA has complained that it's disproportionate to the size of the one it's replacing and they're insisting I use timber for the doors/cladding - hardly ideal in terms of maintenance.

 

I've attached a basic diagram which will hopefully illustrate the issues and my arguments are that:

 

1. The existing garage is disproportionate to the (extended) house. 

2. It's in the middle of the front garden area and effectively obscures a view of open fields to the east - not great for greenbelt "openness". The LPA seems to disagree with this and would prefer me to keep the garage where it is - makes no sense to me at all.

3. The existing garage is too small for solar panels but the larger version would allow me to have up to 10 panels. Using the garage for a roof-integrated PV array is better than using the main (historic) house.

4. I should be able to build any size garage I want as long as it fits in with Permitted Development - the curtilage is huge so no problem there and the maximum roof/eaves height I want is fine plus there's no Article 4 directive in place - according to this article I should be fine but how does the conservation area affect this? 
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/green-belt-permitted-development/ 

 

Can anyone offer any insight into how PD would work in my example? Would I have the option of just building a three-bay garage and forget about planning permission?

Thanks

[joe90]

In your diagram the proposed garage is slightly forward of your principle house elevation (is this the case?)  as not allowed under permitted development, other than that….I don’t see why you cannot build what you want.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/permitted-development-rights

Edited October 1, 2023 by joe90

[DevilDamo]

Are you within a Conservation Area then? If so, your proposed garage will require Planning.

 

Edit: Should have read the topic title better. As I mentioned, you will require Planning. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by DevilDamo

[ProDave]

You say that is your "front" garden.  The context is not clear in particular where are the neighbouring houses, where do they front to?

 

Normally the elevation facing the road is the principle elevation, so that to me is a side garden.  Where the building line lies depends to some extent on what neighbours there are.  but if you move your garage just a little to the right so it is inline with the house wall that faces the road I would say it is okay.

 

Won't that make it a tight turn into the garage or will a car never go in there?

[joe90]

1 hour ago, DevilDamo said:

Are you within a Conservation Area then? If so, your proposed garage will require Planning.

However…..

 

Here’s the very surprising truth: permitted development rights for homeowners are exactly the same in the Green Belt as they are in your average suburb or town centre.   🤷‍♂️

 

so @phykell is it green belt or a conservation area ?

[phykell]

23 hours ago, joe90 said:

In your diagram the proposed garage is slightly forward of your principle house elevation (is this the case?)  as not allowed under permitted development, other than that….I don’t see why you cannot build what you want.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/permitted-development-rights

Sorry about that - yes, it's supposed to be in line with the principal elevation. 

 

 

21 hours ago, joe90 said:

However…..

 

Here’s the very surprising truth: permitted development rights for homeowners are exactly the same in the Green Belt as they are in your average suburb or town centre.   🤷‍♂️

 

so @phykell is it green belt or a conservation area ?

It's definitely a conservation area and in the greenbelt. For the main property, I had to jump through all sorts of hoops, using reclaimed slates, specific bricks, specific types/materials for the windows, etc. I had to use flush sash UPVC windows in the original bit and aluminium in the new bit - you can't make this kind of nonsense up! The existing garage is a 1950s-70s style with rendered brick, a slate roof and steel up and over doors. For the new garage, they're insisting on reclaimed slate, timber doors/cladding and even cast iron rainwater goods - I think we'll be able to forego the latter though as the main property used a cast-iron effect aluminium.  

 

 

[phykell]

22 hours ago, ProDave said:

You say that is your "front" garden.  The context is not clear in particular where are the neighbouring houses, where do they front to?

 

Normally the elevation facing the road is the principle elevation, so that to me is a side garden.  Where the building line lies depends to some extent on what neighbours there are.  but if you move your garage just a little to the right so it is inline with the house wall that faces the road I would say it is okay.

 

Won't that make it a tight turn into the garage or will a car never go in there?

Yes, there's one neighbour at the side - the garden to the south extends a long way to the end of the road. It's a block diagram and is far from accurate regarding the turn in to the garage. 

If PD does apply in this case, it worries me that the LPA didn't tell me I didn't need planning permission; further, I need not have paid out for bat surveys and arboricultural reports

[DevilDamo]

Any outbuildings to the side of properties (which this would be) within a Conservation Area require Planning.

[DevilDamo]

51 minutes ago, phykell said:

you can't make this kind of nonsense up!

LPA’s amongst other things are there to protect the heritage of the conservation area. Surely you were aware of the site restrictions when you purchased the property? Or did the agents caveat any development options with “subject to Planning permission”? Count yourself lucky you’re not also dealing with a listed building.

[phykell]

23 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

Any outbuildings to the side of properties (which this would be) within a Conservation Area require Planning.

Unfortunately, I have to concur:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permitted-development-rights-for-householders-technical-guidance

E.3 In the case of any land within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse which is article 2(3) land, development is not permitted by Class E if any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land between a wall forming a side elevation of the dwellinghouse and the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.

 

It looks like I'll have to build it at the rear of the property if I want anything larger than the existing garage then but at least it can be via permitted development. The confusing issue is that it can be argued that the south elevation is the original front of the property and the north elevation is the "new" front of the property but I can't find any guidance on whether the roadside elevation, in this case, trumps the old/new fronts as the "principal elevation".

 

19 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

LPA’s amongst other things are there to protect the heritage of the conservation area. Surely you were aware of the site restrictions when you purchased the property? Or did the agents caveat any development options with “subject to Planning permission”? Count yourself lucky you’re not also dealing with a listed building.

I knew there would be issues and went to huge effort, time and expense to renovate the main dwelling. Unfortunately, I then thought it would be OK to build a decent garage instead of the undersized, ugly, badly positioned one I have.  

[DevilDamo]

The principal elevation would be the elevation facing the road, i.e. the west.

 

What’s stopping your from trying to secure Planning? You could use the floor area and volume of the existing as a trade off towards the new. Then providing the external materials are in keeping, then it should not be a massive issue. Or perhaps consider a carport? Are there any nearby trees to contend with?

[Mr Punter]

I am with @DevilDamo.  Just get some plans drawn up and submit them for planning.  PD rules don't apply for you here.  If it is well designed and attractive there is no reason it should not get consent.

 

You won't be listing arguments in the application, just decent drawings and careful selection of materials.

 

I have known planners turn down PV in a Conservation Area.

[phykell]

4 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

The principal elevation would be the elevation facing the road, i.e. the west.

 

What’s stopping your from trying to secure Planning? You could use the floor area and volume of the existing as a trade off towards the new. Then providing the external materials are in keeping, then it should not be a massive issue. Or perhaps consider a carport? Are there any nearby trees to contend with?

 

Sadly, whilst I have submitted a planning application, they won't allow me to build anything bigger than the existing one and they've told me to move it well away from the road and reduce the height to less than the current garage so I'm getting even less than current have plus I doubt they'll let me build a carport or add any other outbuildings. For the record, there's a 7' hedge so you can't see much from the road and the "conservation area" itself isn't exactly the Cotswolds. There are no trees that are in scope.

[phykell]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

I am with @DevilDamo.  Just get some plans drawn up and submit them for planning.  PD rules don't apply for you here.  If it is well designed and attractive there is no reason it should not get consent.

 

You won't be listing arguments in the application, just decent drawings and careful selection of materials.

 

I have known planners turn down PV in a Conservation Area.

Apologies for any confusion but I have submitted an application - they just won't let me increase the garage size. In my opinion, they're being completely unreasonable - the current garage is a real eyesore and is in the centre of the "front" garden, obscuring the views across the open countryside - I've attached a picture.

 

The design I submitted for the replacement garage is a huge improvement but nothing particularly novel - slate roof, black timber cladding, oak framing at the front, three bays, and black timber doors. Once the old one's demolished, it will really open up the front garden space which promotes the "openness of the greenbelt", etc. I've even suggested that the larger garage will allow me to have solar panels - not much point for the smaller garage and may force me to have the panels on the roof of the main dwelling instead, assuming they don't find a way to object to that as well.

As an aside, if you look to the LHS at the back, that's a disused swimming pool - not sure what to do about that yet  

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by phykell
Image size

[ProDave]

21 minutes ago, phykell said:

 

Sadly, whilst I have submitted a planning application, they won't allow me to build anything bigger than the existing one and they've told me to move it well away from the road and reduce the height to less than the current garage so I'm getting even less than current have plus I doubt they'll let me build a carport or add any other outbuildings. For the record, there's a 7' hedge so you can't see much from the road and the "conservation area" itself isn't exactly the Cotswolds. There are no trees that are in scope.

Then let them refuse it and appeal.

 

My first house I wanted to build a garage (there was none)  The planners wanted me to stick it tucked away behind the house taking up the best bit of the back garden, I wanted it alongside the house on a corner plot.  Planners refused it, I appealed and won the appeal and the inspectors report praised the siting of the garage.

[joe90]

I second going to appeal, easier in my opinion than applying for planning and they are far more “practical “ IMO. Frankly with a current refusal it’s your only option and as you say the new one is far more appealing than the existing one.

 

see if you can get a picture of what you propose, a picture is worth a thousand words (as they say).

Edited October 3, 2023 by joe90

[ProDave]

I would also add, that you should make it clear to your local planners that you believe your new garage will be a better replacement to the old one, and if it is refused by them you WILL appeal.

[DevilDamo]

Do you “need” a triple garage? Can you not make do with a nicer designer double garage or carport that would therefore be a similar size and height as the existing? If you went for an open fronted garage, then you could achieve something like this. But note they would condition the approval that it could not be fully enclosed so you may want to include doors for the submission so you have option of having them or not.

[joe90]

2 hours ago, phykell said:

there's a 7' hedge so you can't see much from the road and the "conservation area" itself isn't exactly the Cotswolds.

Include a photo of that 7’ hedge in your appeal to show that from the road little will be seen.  Also point out that a well designed oak framed garage is less of an eyesore than vehicles parked on the drive 🤷‍♂️.

Edited October 3, 2023 by joe90

[kandgmitchell]

Be aware that "openness" in the green belt for planners is not so much about long views but lack of "clutter". They tend to like buildings grouped together rather than spead out and "dotted" about. That'll explain their desire to see you keep the garage closer to the house. The open view for you and the "openness" for them will then be between the garage and the side boundary.

 

I do like DevilDamo's idea though.....

[Barking99]

We were totally refused planning permission for a garage on a Self-build. Very similar positioning to yours.
Took it to appeal and was permitted. The appeal officer shot the reasons for refusal down. They were happy as long as we used similar materials as the house.

Logic and sense sometimes doesn’t come into play with some planning officers. Even worse if there is a conservation officer involved.

 

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, Barking99 said:

The appeal officer shot the reasons for refusal down.

The same happened with my appeal 👍

[Barking99]

I remember one of the reasons for refusal was we hadn’t supplied the planners good enough reasons why we needed a garage🤔! 

 

[Pendicle]

Reading with interest, we are demolishing house with no garage, planners are happy for building new house on same footprint and not in conservation area. Obvious place to put garage is opposite driveway gate, next to house but would block best view from the house to the woodland on the west side. 3 trees with TPOs in front garden, are also proving an issue regards turning cars within foot print. Architects answer is to ask to remove a lime tree with TPO and push garage forward to allow window from house with clear view behind garage. Tree survey says it is best tree on site out of 30, I also don’t feel comfortable removing a tree older than me and neighbours have already asked that we don’t remove trees. My only solution is to site the garage to the east within cartilage of front garden to left of actual dwelling in front of house line ( will need to consider root protection for garage) Also move the house back 1m so car can pass tree with ease, create landing zone to turn cars safely and provide additional parking. We are on a road with no parking. It will enable us to put car charging point near plant room and may provide roof space on garage for PV as the lime shades the house roof (south facing front garden) would also replace existing shabby hedge to hide garage from road. Wondering if to apply for house PP before applying separately for garage PP, I would then try move house further to west so there was not enough room to build garage. Cunning or stupid!

[DevilDamo]

21 hours ago, Pendicle said:

Reading with interest, we are demolishing house with no garage, planners are happy for building new house on same footprint and not in conservation area. Obvious place to put garage is opposite driveway gate, next to house but would block best view from the house to the woodland on the west side. 3 trees with TPOs in front garden, are also proving an issue regards turning cars within foot print. Architects answer is to ask to remove a lime tree with TPO and push garage forward to allow window from house with clear view behind garage. Tree survey says it is best tree on site out of 30, I also don’t feel comfortable removing a tree older than me and neighbours have already asked that we don’t remove trees. My only solution is to site the garage to the east within cartilage of front garden to left of actual dwelling in front of house line ( will need to consider root protection for garage) Also move the house back 1m so car can pass tree with ease, create landing zone to turn cars safely and provide additional parking. We are on a road with no parking. It will enable us to put car charging point near plant room and may provide roof space on garage for PV as the lime shades the house roof (south facing front garden) would also replace existing shabby hedge to hide garage from road. Wondering if to apply for house PP before applying separately for garage PP, I would then try move house further to west so there was not enough room to build garage. Cunning or stupid!

I’d suggest you creating a new post and include some drawings and photos.