All Pumped Up ! :)

[Ed_MK]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The term "cess pit" is being used here, when I'm nearly 100% certain that there cannot be a cess pit.  Worth clarifying, as a cess pit needs emptying every 2 to 3 months, as it's just a storage tank.  They are pretty rare now, mainly because they are costly to maintain and because modern water usage rates mean they need emptying far more frequently was the case when they were initially used, tens of decades ago.

 

I think it's far more likely that what was being used was a septic tank, a completely different system altogether, and one that allows the effluent to settle, the sludge to anaerobically decompose and the liquid effluent to drain to a leach field where it is supposedly treated by aerobic soil bacteria.  A septic tank only needs emptying when the sludge level builds up, perhaps every one or two years or so.

 

Well i can be easily confused.....but this one gets emptied 2-3 times a year, from what I am told

well there is only 2 people living there (until we moved in!)

 

fropm what I can see there is 3 manholes along the legnth for rodding and inspection

and at the end is a massive square tank (with 2 manhole covers)

 

when i say massive i can guess from looking around in there that its a chamber of say 8-10 feet by

i suppose almost the same again .....but its deep too ...when i had to rod at the base the hole full of 

"paper and shiP ".....it was an inlet about 3 foot under water and the water level itself was a good 5 foot from the top

so I am guessing it to be possible 8 x 8 x 8

 

and was installed in the 70's

 

to be hone t i suppose the water MAY drain away somewhere ....but nobody here seems to know if and how as it was already here

when they moved in the 80's and besides the odd blockage every few years ....has been OK, apart from the smell at the bottom of the garden

which in summer isnt exactly roses !

 

 

[Ed_MK]

i did mention this to the slab installer, as his firm also digs service trenches too

and he seemed to think it would be just within tolerance ...there is over 4 metres between the 2 houses and a 

block wall smack in the middle ?

 

what do you think 

[Oz07]

There are ways of getting round this becoming/being a public sewer. Firstly as said above see if you have the fall for gravity system. You will need to check the road firstly then where your parents pipework joins the existing cesspit. Realistically you will get away with 12.5mm per metre on nice straight run like this. At 60m from the road your invert will be between 900-1200mm deep allowing for a bit of pipe cover. That would be if the land were flat. Adjust accordingly. I would be suprised if the sewer in the road was shallower than this. 

 

Secondly i I think you will get away with running both properties through one pipe on your own land, so long as your keeping building control happy. I don't think it has to be adoptable because it didn't exist before as a public sewer and it's not 100% that it will be adopted. If you do encounter any trouble with this then just lay 2 pipes and join off (adoptable) ic before road

[Oz07]

6 minutes ago, Ian said:

@Ed_MK

also, as your new sewer pipes will be very close to your neighbours boundary and may be deeper than their house foundations you will need a Party Wall agreement with them in place before you start digging

https://www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works

I'd check the dims before doing this. Realistically looks to be 1 or 2 metres away. If 2 metres with the 45degree rule probably is ok

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

I don't think it has to be adoptable because it didn't exist before as a public sewer and it's not 100% that it will be adopted. If you do encounter any trouble with this then just lay 2 pipes and join off (adoptable) ic before road

 

These rules changed a couple of years back - anything now that has more than one property within the Severn Trent region at least has to be adoptable. We considered hooking into next door but the cost was prohibitive as ST wanted us to upgrade the run in their garden and that was 32m and had to be all accessible at 3m wide. 

[Ferdinand]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

These rules changed a couple of years back - anything now that has more than one property within the Severn Trent region at least has to be adoptable. We considered hooking into next door but the cost was prohibitive as ST wanted us to upgrade the run in their garden and that was 32m and had to be all accessible at 3m wide. 

 

QUite a sensible move by Severn Trent by the sound of it, then.

 

From their point of view.

[Ian]

30 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

i did mention this to the slab installer, as his firm also digs service trenches too

and he seemed to think it would be just within tolerance ...there is over 4 metres between the 2 houses and a 

block wall smack in the middle ?

 

what do you think 

Re Party Wall

It will all depend on the relative depth of your neighbours foundations and your proposed new sewer(s).

 

How well do you get on with your neighbours? If you are all on good terms with each other, once you have some proper idea of what you want to do you could explain it to them and ask if you could check how deep their foundations are.

 

if your parents house and the neighbours house were built at the same time and are the same design it’s likely that the foundations will all be the same depth so you could possibly check your parents house first.

 

On the road where my Mum & Dad live the ground is sand over a deep layer of peat. The older houses have shallow raft foundations but the newer ones all have very deep pile founds so you have to be a little bit careful making assumptions.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Ian

[Ed_MK]

yes, they were both built at exactly the same time

and sold by the landowner ...so i suppose thats a start

 

the ground around here is what i would call "stony soil" if you go down through the first 6 inches of topsoil
its all very dense grey/brown and stony stuff ...very dry and good for drainage though ! ...but trust me shovelling into it
is a nighmare as it bounces of a stone every 15 seconds 

[Ed_MK]

29 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

I'd check the dims before doing this. Realistically looks to be 1 or 2 metres away. If 2 metres with the 45degree rule probably is ok

 

whats is the 45 degree Rule Oz?

i hope its nothing to do with being a worshipful brother

 

[Ian]

7 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

 

whats is the 45 degree Rule Oz?

i hope its nothing to do with being a worshipful brother

 

Diagram below but it applies to your sewer too

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Ian

[Ed_MK]

Will it make a difference if I am already REPLACING an existing trench/pipe

as my parents have a drain to the cesspit running down this path already 

and technically this will only be "diverted the other way"

 

 

oh...

 

and of course our new one will be added

[PeterW]

24 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

Will it make a difference if I am already REPLACING an existing trench/pipe

as my parents have a drain to the cesspit running down this path already 

and technically this will only be "diverted the other way"

 

 

oh...

 

and of course our new one will be added

 

Makes no difference when you’re digging 

 

Just another random thought though - is the neighbour on a septic too ..?? Worth offering to do his connection too at a knockdown price - in exchange for him letting you dig where you want ..??

[Ed_MK]

no Peter, I think they went on mains before they moved in,

there is about 3 properties left out of 10 that are still "on the pits"

 

looking at the image above ...if we keep the pipes close to our property then we may just get away with it.

I will have to get the dumpy out again and REALLY be accurate,

 

Also in the trench as you know i will have Leccy, Gas and "Telecoms"?

I..although less deep...

I was wondering  a few things (as usual)

 

Would it be possible to just "bury some plastic pipes" and then later the services could
run theirs through them ? ...or else i will have an open trench sat for ages I am surmising

[Ed_MK]

On 12/16/2017 at 11:41, Ian said:

Diagram below but it applies to your sewer too

 

 

i may get away with it Ian,

i was surprised as i had never heard of the "6m/45 deg" rule.

people seem to quote the "2m from a boundary"..where do we get them from ?

 

[Ian]

2 hours ago, Ed_MK said:

people seem to quote the "2m from a boundary"..where do we get them from ?

 

There's several parts of the regs which potentially apply to the work you are planning although it sounds unlikely that the 3 metre rule would apply to you.

 

Extract from the regs:

 

"Adjacent excavation and construction.

(1)This section applies where—

(a)a building owner proposes to excavate, or excavate for and erect a building or structure, within a distance of three metres measured horizontally from any part of a building or structure of an adjoining owner; and

(b)any part of the proposed excavation, building or structure will within those three metres extend to a lower level than the level of the bottom of the foundations of the building or structure of the adjoining owner.

(2)This section also applies where—

(a)a building owner proposes to excavate, or excavate for and erect a building or structure, within a distance of six metres measured horizontally from any part of a building or structure of an adjoining owner; and

(b)any part of the proposed excavation, building or structure will within those six metres meet a plane drawn downwards in the direction of the excavation, building or structure of the building owner at an angle of forty-five degrees to the horizontal from the line formed by the intersection of the plane of the level of the bottom of the foundations of the building or structure of the adjoining owner with the plane of the external face of the external wall of the building or structure of the adjoining owner."

[Oz07]

3 hours ago, Ed_MK said:

no Peter, I think they went on mains before they moved in,

there is about 3 properties left out of 10 that are still "on the pits"

 

looking at the image above ...if we keep the pipes close to our property then we may just get away with it.

I will have to get the dumpy out again and REALLY be accurate,

 

Also in the trench as you know i will have Leccy, Gas and "Telecoms"?

I..although less deep...

I was wondering  a few things (as usual)

 

Would it be possible to just "bury some plastic pipes" and then later the services could
run theirs through them ? ...or else i will have an open trench sat for ages I am surmising

Get spec from them beforehand and they should be fine. Nowt worse than putting a unperforated duct in and gas board turning up and asking for perforated! Ask me how I know. Also diameter of duct is important 

[Ed_MK]

39 minutes ago, Ian said:

There's several parts of the regs which potentially apply to the work you are planning although it sounds unlikely that the 3 metre rule would apply to you.

 

Extract from the regs:

 

"Adjacent excavation and construction.

(1)This section applies where—

(a)a building owner proposes to excavate, or excavate for and erect a building or structure, within a distance of three metres measured horizontally from any part of a building or structure of an adjoining owner; and

(b)any part of the proposed excavation, building or structure will within those three metres extend to a lower level than the level of the bottom of the foundations of the building or structure of the adjoining owner.

(2)This section also applies where—

(a)a building owner proposes to excavate, or excavate for and erect a building or structure, within a distance of six metres measured horizontally from any part of a building or structure of an adjoining owner; and

(b)any part of the proposed excavation, building or structure will within those six metres meet a plane drawn downwards in the direction of the excavation, building or structure of the building owner at an angle of forty-five degrees to the horizontal from the line formed by the intersection of the plane of the level of the bottom of the foundations of the building or structure of the adjoining owner with the plane of the external face of the external wall of the building or structure of the adjoining owner."

 

I see Ian,

 

well I have emailed Anglian Water to find out what height my soil pipe will need to be to access the drain outside on the road.

Once I have this and I can use my other levels to work out a depth for the pipe as it "passes" the neighbours house.

 

Wall to wall lit is about 3.5 metres ...maybe 4

[Ed_MK]

2 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Get spec from them beforehand and they should be fine. Nowt worse than putting a unperforated duct in and gas board turning up and asking for perforated! Ask me how I know. Also diameter of duct is important 

Ouch! ..I have made a note.

 

regarding Telecoms ...are they happy with a 2in Pipe running in the trench ? ..for them to feed through?

I dont suppose they are too over-regulated ....

 

..But i could be wrong !

 

[Oz07]

9 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

Ouch! ..I have made a note.

 

regarding Telecoms ...are they happy with a 2in Pipe running in the trench ? ..for them to feed through?

I dont suppose they are too over-regulated ....

 

..But i could be wrong !

 

They will usually supply some rigid duct. As for getting in touch with them it requires some serious googling

[Ed_MK]

LOL

 

Well it can't be worse than getting hold of Vodafone technical support.

It was the WORST I have ever encountered. I mean try getting out of contract...

..its like leaving Mafia (i imagine)

 

<puts 2 brussel sprouts in mouth and speaks hoarse and quiet>

 

" you know too many secrets ...you can never leave ...alive"

[LadyBuilder]

Didn't read the whole chain on this thread, so sorry if I am repeating what somebody else has already said. It is just that I am currently up to my neck with easements, drainage and public/private sewage...

 

Looking at the diagram, even if you don't connect your parents, the moment your pipe (serving only your property) crosses over to your parents' land, it becomes public sewer and all the conditions and restrictions will apply. You will have to apply for consent and that will be identified. I can't see how it wouldn't, based on the diagram

Edited December 19, 2017 by LadyBuilder

[Ferdinand]

28 minutes ago, LadyBuilder said:

Didn't read the whole chain on this thread, so sorry if I am repeating what somebody else has already said. It is just that I am currently up to my neck with easements, drainage and public/private sewage...

 

Looking at the diagram, even if you don't connect your parents, the moment your pipe (serving only your property) crosses over to your parents' land, it becomes public sewer and all the conditions and restrictions will apply. You will have to apply for consent and that will be identified. I can't see how it wouldn't, based on the diagram

 

Can you give me a link on that? Was going to ask in the other thread but it was hidden first.

 

My understanding *was* that it only becomes an adopted soil pipe where there is input from 2 separate dwellings, not simply by going under somebody else's land?

 

I am thinking that I may be wrong on this eg my neighbour's soil pipe which runs under my back garden without connecting into any part of my system may in fact be adopted? Is this true? It is a case not covered on the website of my own provider Severn-Trent.

 

Guessing that @LadyBuilder has dug deeply into sewers, I would welcome clarification.

 

Cheers

 

Ferdinand

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

Perhaps this particular issue could be sidestepped by @Ed_MK buying a strip of land a foot or several feet wide from his parents, putting in the sewer, then giving them a Right of Way  to walk etc over the top.

 

That would have other complications, however. Might make buyers of the parent house uncomfortable.

 

Ferdinand

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ferdinand

[LadyBuilder]

https://www.stwater.co.uk/my-supply/pipes-and-drains/responsibility-and-ownership/sewer-pipe-responsibility

 

good drawing here. law changed in oct 11

[LadyBuilder]

Th

2 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Perhaps this particular issue could be sidestepped by @Ed_MK buying a strip of land a foot or several feet wide from his parents, putting in the sewer, then giving them a Right of Way  to walk etc over the top.

That would be my solution too.