Party wall dissent process

[TryC]

Hi All,

 

Can anyone advise in the process of dissent and how long it could take for an Award to be given.

 

I'm at my wits end. Neighbour who was fine with our proposal of works had explicitly said all was fine until recently. And is now taking the coward's way out by avoiding us and basically taken us into dissent, and holding up our works.

 

Any advice appreciated. 

[Temp]

The procedure is in here..

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet

 

Basically can take months. If you get no reply or no agreement you are meant to appoint and pay for a surveyor to represent them separate to the one you are using.  

 

What work are you doing? 

 

There is no penalty for not complying with the PWA but if you caused damage and it went to court they might look less favourably on you for not complying.

[TryC]

9 minutes ago, Temp said:

The procedure is in here..

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet

 

Basically can take months. If you get no reply or no agreement you are meant to appoint and pay for a surveyor to represent them separate to the one you are using.  

 

What work are you doing? 

 

There is no penalty for not complying with the PWA but if you caused damage and it went to court they might look less favourably on you for not complying.

thanks! it is a one storey rear extension. 

 

I probably opened myself a can of worms doing a PWA as the builder and the architect said I didn't need one. But reading online, I felt I did. The party wall surveyor thought the same...while I know they could be saying that for the money, I truly do think we need one, and the surveyor we hired is honest.

 

And while I understand the Adjoining neighbour is well within their right to look out for his property, I just don't understand why they cannot just be honest and upfront about it versus stabbing us in the back..that they wanted an Award.

 

We just wanted to do the right thing for both parties, hence the PWA route.

 

Knowing they were purposely going to dissent whilst telling us something else to our face is a bitter pill to swallow. Now they could delay the entire thing for months? to what gain? 

 

 

[Temp]

Most rear extensions would only need a PWA if the foundations need to go deeper than your neighbours foundation (in a terrace that normally means deeper than your own) or if you were building off their extensions or something like that.  

 

What reason did the surveyor give for needing one.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Temp

[Big Jimbo]

`Have you tried either going around and knocking, or perhaps writing a nice note, and popping it through the door.

What is the reason that you think you might need a PWA ?

[Big Jimbo]

I always like to" assume" that my foundations are only going as deep as my own, and my neighbours. If they have to go a bit deeper, dig it and get if filled with concrete. I understand however, if you need to insert beams etc into a party wall.

[TryC]

hi,

 

yes, we've spoke about it multiple times and also told and spoken about this works in general since the start of the year. never an issue. spoke about responding to the PWA a few times and they have just lied to our faces, every time. 

 

because we're digging within 3 metres of the boundary line.

[TryC]

1 minute ago, Big Jimbo said:

I always like to" assume" that my foundations are only going as deep as my own, and my neighbours. If they have to go a bit deeper, dig it and get if filled with concrete. I understand however, if you need to insert beams etc into a party wall.

hi,

 

we're not even touching the boundary line or building up to it, but will be digging within 3 metres of the boundry line.  there is a boundry wall but that is on the neighbours side. we're not building or touching the boundry wall on their side. hope that makes sense

[Big Jimbo]

So, how old is the boundary wall, and how high is it. Do you think it will have a foundation ? Is it in good condition ?

How close will you be digging near this wall ?

[TryC]

1 minute ago, Big Jimbo said:

So, how old is the boundary wall, and how high is it. Do you think it will have a foundation ? Is it in good condition ?

How close will you be digging near this wall ?

I'm not actually sure if that boundary wall has always been there or if the neighbour put it there to be honest. It has been there a good while.

 

It is in good condition. we're digging within 3 metres of the boundary wall/line.

 

the boundary wall is on a patio, again not sure if that was always there or if the neighbour did it. it slopes on one side that leads to the lower garden.

[markc]

If they are not responding then give them final notification as you will be starting works within one week, then just get on with it. If you were fixing to or altering a garden wall or works directly onto an inside PW then it’s a different matter

[TryC]

Just now, markc said:

If they are not responding then give them final notification as you will be starting works within one week, then just get on with it. If you were fixing to or altering a garden wall or works directly onto an inside PW then it’s a different matter

? I was under the impression without consent, you cannot just go ahead. we're not touching the garden wall/boundary wall...fixing or altering...I'm confused now 

[markc]

9 minutes ago, TryC said:

? I was under the impression without consent, you cannot just go ahead. we're not touching the garden wall/boundary wall...fixing or altering...I'm confused now 

Majority of outside work is done without a PWA, a single storey extension is pretty minor works. A PWA comes into its own when something goes badly wrong … underpinning a terrace house and the wall collapses, chimney dropping through roof etc. but from what you are describing it’s an extension not joining onto your neighbour so likelihood of a catastrophe is very low. You have done the right thing by making them aware. I would now just get on with it

Edited August 11, 2023 by markc

[TryC]

29 minutes ago, markc said:

Majority of outside work is done without a PWA, a single storey extension is pretty minor works. A PWA comes into its own when something goes badly wrong … underpinning a terrace house and the wall collapses, chimney dropping through roof etc. but from what you are describing it’s an extension not joining onto your neighbour so likelihood of a catastrophe is very low. You have done the right thing by making them aware. I would now just get on with it

thanks! I thought so too, but they're kicking up some kinda fuss when we aren't event touching the boundary wall and within our boundary. no over hang of gutters, nothing.

 

Now if they don't let the bricklayer come onto their land, then they are the ones that have to look at overhand bricks forever. if they want to be that petty,  because we're not paying for it to be rendered!

 

I'm just confused as to why we are even at this point!

[markc]

1 hour ago, TryC said:

Now if they don't let the bricklayer come onto their land, then they are the ones that have to look at overhand bricks forever. if they want to be that petty,  because we're not paying for it to be rendered!

 

I'm just confused as to why we are even at this point!

Good argument, you want access for their benefit. And some people just disagree with anything and everything so don’t stress over it, due diligence! You do what you can (and what’s reasonable) to make the works as painless as possible for your neighbours but you are allowed to have work done.

[Temp]

3 hours ago, TryC said:

because we're digging within 3 metres of the boundary line.

 

Thats OK. See section 28..

 

Quote

 

28. What does the Act say if I want to excavate near neighbouring buildings?

 

If you plan to:

excavate, or excavate for and construct foundations for a new building or structure, within 3 metres of any part of a neighbouring owner’s building or structure, where any part of that work will go deeper than the neighbour’s foundations (see diagram 6); 

 

 

 

So you can dig within 3m provided you don't go deeper than the neighbours foundations. 

 

[joe90]

How close to their boundary wall are you building?

 

A Party Wall Notice dissent means that the adjoining owner is effectively dissenting to the Party Wall Notice that has been served upon them.  However, the phrase dissent doesn’t necessarily mean that the adjoining owner is unhappy or unwilling to allow the work to proceed, it simply means that they are not consenting to the Party Wall Notice, and thereby want the full protections that the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 affords upon them.

Dissent can often feel like an overly formal word, or unreflective of the adjoining owner’s overall feelings of the work, and therefore any building owner reading this, or confused about the phraseology dissent in the adjoining owner’s Party Wall Notice response should always take this into mind. 
 

How close to a boundary can you build without a party wall agreement?

 

 

You can build your extension up to 50mm from your neighbours' boundary as long as you have either Permitted Development Rights or have Planning Permission. This could be a suitable option if you aren't able to secure a Party Wall Agreement.16 Jun 2023

Edited August 11, 2023 by joe90

[TryC]

21 minutes ago, joe90 said:

How close to their boundary wall are you building?

 

A Party Wall Notice dissent means that the adjoining owner is effectively dissenting to the Party Wall Notice that has been served upon them.  However, the phrase dissent doesn’t necessarily mean that the adjoining owner is unhappy or unwilling to allow the work to proceed, it simply means that they are not consenting to the Party Wall Notice, and thereby want the full protections that the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 affords upon them.

Dissent can often feel like an overly formal word, or unreflective of the adjoining owner’s overall feelings of the work, and therefore any building owner reading this, or confused about the phraseology dissent in the adjoining owner’s Party Wall Notice response should always take this into mind. 
 

How close to a boundary can you build without a party wall agreement?

 

 

You can build your extension up to 50mm from your neighbours' boundary as long as you have either Permitted Development Rights or have Planning Permission. This could be a suitable option if you aren't able to secure a Party Wall Agreement.16 Jun 2023

Thanks!

 

we already have planning permission.  Neighbour would have been notified at that stage too. no objection. while I understand planning permission and PWA is totally different., they just asked us to carry on and made no indication that they had a problem with the proposed works.

 

Yes, dissent is a scary word, and while they might not actually be unhappy about the works, it makes me think they are because they are dragging it out and being very elusive about it when we query it with them. They dance around the question, so now we know they're doing it on purpose and being plain spiteful. 

 

 

[TryC]

26 minutes ago, joe90 said:

How close to their boundary wall are you building?

 

A Party Wall Notice dissent means that the adjoining owner is effectively dissenting to the Party Wall Notice that has been served upon them.  However, the phrase dissent doesn’t necessarily mean that the adjoining owner is unhappy or unwilling to allow the work to proceed, it simply means that they are not consenting to the Party Wall Notice, and thereby want the full protections that the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 affords upon them.

Dissent can often feel like an overly formal word, or unreflective of the adjoining owner’s overall feelings of the work, and therefore any building owner reading this, or confused about the phraseology dissent in the adjoining owner’s Party Wall Notice response should always take this into mind. 
 

How close to a boundary can you build without a party wall agreement?

 

 

You can build your extension up to 50mm from your neighbours' boundary as long as you have either Permitted Development Rights or have Planning Permission. This could be a suitable option if you aren't able to secure a Party Wall Agreement.16 Jun 2023

we're not building up to the boundary line. But I believe since we are digging withing 3 metres of the boundary wall, we need a PWA

 

[TryC]

34 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

Thats OK. See section 28..

 

 

So you can dig within 3m provided you don't go deeper than the neighbours foundations. 

 

I have no idea if we are digging deeper than the neighbour’s boundary wall/patio as I don't know if they did this themselves or if it was built this way. 

[Mr Punter]

I am not sure if you need to serve notice under the PWA but if you have, the process has started.  It is best for you if you both use the same surveyor.  The Award will take about 6 weeks.

 

If you have not served notice, you could just go ahead.  The neighbour would have to get an injunction at  the High Court and may be liable for costs if they were unsuccessful.

[TryC]

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

I am not sure if you need to serve notice under the PWA but if you have, the process has started.  It is best for you if you both use the same surveyor.  The Award will take about 6 weeks.

 

If you have not served notice, you could just go ahead.  The neighbour would have to get an injunction at  the High Court and may be liable for costs if they were unsuccessful.

thanks.

 

But I believe since we are digging withing 3 metres of the boundary wall, we need do need PWA. 

 

is that 6 weeks altogether or after the 10 day notice has been served. Yes, agree it would be best to use the same surveyor but I think at this point, they aren't looking to do this amicably. I read people can be spiteful and choose expensive ones 

 

 

[Big Jimbo]

How far away from the wall are you digging ? How high is there wall ?

If they want to be a total pain. You will appoint a PWa surveyor. They won't agree to the PWA. You will then have to appoint a second surveyor to act on there behalf, and pay for it. The Two surveyors will not agree with each other. Then you will have to appoint a third surveyor to actually sort out the PWA. By the time you have finished you will have wasted £6k

 

[Big Jimbo]

How do you know you will be digging deeper than there footings ?

[TryC]

9 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

How far away from the wall are you digging ? How high is there wall ?

If they want to be a total pain. You will appoint a PWa surveyor. They won't agree to the PWA. You will then have to appoint a second surveyor to act on there behalf, and pay for it. The Two surveyors will not agree with each other. Then you will have to appoint a third surveyor to actually sort out the PWA. By the time you have finished you will have wasted £6k

 

where did you get 6k from?