Heat Pump Ready

[saveasteading]

21 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Together these more than eliminate the value of the grant and expose the customer to unnecessary disruption.  I would also argue that this tends to protect the installer, by providing a set of rigid rules which, if the installer follows them, pretty much immunises him from complaint.  Given that MCS is justified largely on the grounds of consumer protection, it appears to be failing

Very good.

 

Could a version of this be put at the start to engage attention and cut tothe point? what about  a headline?

Government's Air source heat pump (ASHP) grant system  only benefits the closed shop industry, It costs more to the end client and taxpayer, and is a hindrance to the UK reducing emissions.

[JamesPa]

37 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Very good.

 

Could a version of this be put at the start to engage attention and cut tothe point? what about  a headline?

Government's Air source heat pump (ASHP) grant system  only benefits the closed shop industry, It costs more to the end client and taxpayer, and is a hindrance to the UK reducing emissions.

Too late for me, I have submitted it.  But it's an excellent, albeit provocative, start to an article if the Guardian take an interest.

[DougMLancs]

5 hours ago, JamesPa said:

You got a good deal, at least by the standards here in the South East.

 

I posted above that I have pitched to the Guardian the outline idea for an article suggested by others upthread.  Do you think your installer be prepared to share his/her views on MCS if the pitch gets anywhere.  Ideally it needs both consumers and 'the industry' to speak up!

Brendon Uys designed my system- you can contact him through https://ultimaterenewables.com/. He says is just how it is and is very vocal about calling out bad practice and bad policy so I’m sure he’d be good for an opinion. 

[JamesPa]

16 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Oh well, I guess its rather weak to complain without actually doing something.  I have just pitched the idea for an article as suggested above to the Guardian.  I will report back if I get a response!

The Guardian responded within the hour:

 

Thanks for your email. I know that our consumer desk are currently working on various angles related to heat pump installation and the current difficulties surrounding it, so I've passed your email on to them and someone may be in touch with you down the line if they're able to use this information.

 

If anyone has any stories to tell it looks like the consumer team are on the case.

[sharpener]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

The Guardian responded within the hour:

 

If you can let me have details of your contacts there @JamesPa I will send them the following:

<Government's Air source heat pump (ASHP) grant system only benefits the closed shop industry. It costs more to the end client and taxpayer, and is a hindrance to the UK reducing emissions.

I have been trying to install a heat pump in our barn conversion in place of the existing oil boiler.

I have contacted numerous installation companies as well as two utilities that offer heat pumps, Good Energy (who have quoted) and Octopus (who say our installation is too complicated for them).

1st problem: the house is large and has solid stone walls and so needs a large (12kW) heat pump. These are bigger than the 0.6 cu m limit under Permitted Develpment (PD) so it needs formal Planning Permission. This costs £270 and will put a minimum delay of 10 weeks into the project. Some planning authorities also use this to impose impractical noise limitations far more stringent than required under PD.

2nd problem: the existing hot water tank has a heating coil that is "too small". All the installers insist I will need to replace the current tank which will mean dismantling the airing cupboard to get it out and ripping up the landing floor to fit new pipework, at an extra cost of £2k or more. I am a Chartered Engineer and have proposed three different technical workarounds: an extra pump, a separate heat exchanger or an extra plain tank. None of the installers will listen.

3rd problem: the government's Boiler Upgrade Scheme offers a grant of £5000 to fit a heat pump, but this is only available if you use an installer registered with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS). In addition, the fitting of heat pumps is only ever exempt from Planning Permission under the Permitted Development rules if you use an MCS installer. This requirement has nothing to do with Planning or the environment but was written in by MCS themselves. So the MCS installers are a cartel which has little incentive to compete on price and will not entertain ideas that would reduce the installation cost (see 2. above). In practice the £5000 grant is spent on the additional paperwork and the over-specified systems that risk averse MCS installers like to fit, and does not benefit the consumer.

4th problem: ordinary plumbers that are used to fitting gas boilers are kept out of the marketplace. The additional costs of registering with the MCS scheme and completing the resulting paperwork (anecdotally over £1000 per job) dissuades them from entering the heat pump business, so perpetuating it as a closed shop.

5th problem: householders cannot easily do the work themselves. If they fit even the smallest heat pumps it requires Planning Permission. The major heat pump manufacturers only offer extended warranty terms if they are fitted by an approved installer (in practice, an MCS registered firm).

 

So by keeping out the ordinary plumbers, and houselholders who are competent to fit their own systems, it is a nice business for MCS companies. But there are far too few of them to meet the target of xxx installations per year so the requirement to use them needs to be abolished if we are to get anywhere close to meeting those targets.>

 

[Bramco]

Interestingly, we received an email from MCS checking the information on our install.  I'll copy the email below but first for context, our install was done by Nationwide who seem to be the in house installers for a Cool Energy 9kW ASHP.  The hot water cylinder and UFH buffer tank were already installed, so it was simply installing the ASHP and connecting things up to the existing tanks etc.  Total cost £5250, so with the grant it cost us £250.  Also, we already had all the heat loss calcs, so this wasn't needed in our case. It really was just a plumbing and electrics job - oh! and the MCS paperwork.  Took a day to do the install.

 

We did have some issues......  but that's another story.   We also had a hard time getting the MCS documentation - in fact it took a threat to report them following the MCS guide with a formal letter.  Funnily enough the documentation turned up by return of post.

 

Anyway, here's a copy of the email we received from MCS (I'm disinclined to reply as surely they have all this information and if their records aren't correct - who cares?).

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

We’re contacting you regarding your recent MCS certified renewable installation as part of the boiler upgrade scheme. MCS is a standards organisation. We create and maintain standards that allows for the certification of products, installers, and their installations. MCS is a mark of quality.  

We’d like to confirm with you that the information your installers have provided for your MCS certificate in your handover pack is correct. 

Can you please respond to the questions below so we can update our records.

1. Was the installation completed using the Boiler Upgrade Scheme?

2. Date installed/commissioned?

3. Your full address:

4. Air Source, Biomass or Ground Source installed?

5. Installers company name:

6. Heat pump location? E.g., Rear of property, side of property etc.

7. Water tank/cylinder location? E.g., Utility room, airing cupboard etc.

8. Handover pack received?

9. Are you happy with your installation?

10. The £5000.00 grant, was this discounted from your bill, or paid in full and refunded later?

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Strange?

 

[Beelbeebub]

9 minutes ago, Bramco said:

Interestingly, we received an email from MCS checking the information on our install.  I'll copy the email below but first for context, our install was done by Nationwide who seem to be the in house installers for a Cool Energy 9kW ASHP.  The hot water cylinder and UFH buffer tank were already installed, so it was simply installing the ASHP and connecting things up to the existing tanks etc.  Total cost £5250, so with the grant it cost us £250.  Also, we already had all the heat loss calcs, so this wasn't needed in our case. It really was just a plumbing and electrics job - oh! and the MCS paperwork.  Took a day to do the install.

 

We did have some issues......  but that's another story.   We also had a hard time getting the MCS documentation - in fact it took a threat to report them following the MCS guide with a formal letter.  Funnily enough the documentation turned up by return of post.

 

Anyway, here's a copy of the email we received from MCS (I'm disinclined to reply as surely they have all this information and if their records aren't correct - who cares?).

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

We’re contacting you regarding your recent MCS certified renewable installation as part of the boiler upgrade scheme. MCS is a standards organisation. We create and maintain standards that allows for the certification of products, installers, and their installations. MCS is a mark of quality.  

We’d like to confirm with you that the information your installers have provided for your MCS certificate in your handover pack is correct. 

Can you please respond to the questions below so we can update our records.

1. Was the installation completed using the Boiler Upgrade Scheme?

2. Date installed/commissioned?

3. Your full address:

4. Air Source, Biomass or Ground Source installed?

5. Installers company name:

6. Heat pump location? E.g., Rear of property, side of property etc.

7. Water tank/cylinder location? E.g., Utility room, airing cupboard etc.

8. Handover pack received?

9. Are you happy with your installation?

10. The £5000.00 grant, was this discounted from your bill, or paid in full and refunded later?

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Strange?

 

I'm guessing this is MCS cross checking the info they received from the installer corresponds with what happened?

[JamesPa]

10 minutes ago, sharpener said:

 

If you can let me have details of your contacts there @JamesPa I will send them the following:

<Government's Air source heat pump (ASHP) grant system only benefits the closed shop industry. It costs more to the end client and taxpayer, and is a hindrance to the UK reducing emissions.

I have been trying to install a heat pump in our barn conversion in place of the existing oil boiler.

I have contacted numerous installation companies as well as two utilities that offer heat pumps, Good Energy (who have quoted) and Octopus (who say our installation is too complicated for them).

1st problem: the house is large and has solid stone walls and so needs a large (12kW) heat pump. These are bigger than the 0.6 cu m limit under Permitted Develpment (PD) so it needs formal Planning Permission. This costs £270 and will put a minimum delay of 10 weeks into the project. Some planning authorities also use this to impose impractical noise limitations far more stringent than required under PD.

2nd problem: the existing hot water tank has a heating coil that is "too small". All the installers insist I will need to replace the current tank which will mean dismantling the airing cupboard to get it out and ripping up the landing floor to fit new pipework, at an extra cost of £2k or more. I am a Chartered Engineer and have proposed three different technical workarounds: an extra pump, a separate heat exchanger or an extra plain tank. None of the installers will listen.

3rd problem: the government's Boiler Upgrade Scheme offers a grant of £5000 to fit a heat pump, but this is only available if you use an installer registered with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS). In addition, the fitting of heat pumps is only ever exempt from Planning Permission under the Permitted Development rules if you use an MCS installer. This requirement has nothing to do with Planning or the environment but was written in by MCS themselves. So the MCS installers are a cartel which has little incentive to compete on price and will not entertain ideas that would reduce the installation cost (see 2. above). In practice the £5000 grant is spent on the additional paperwork and the over-specified systems that risk averse MCS installers like to fit, and does not benefit the consumer.

4th problem: ordinary plumbers that are used to fitting gas boilers are kept out of the marketplace. The additional costs of registering with the MCS scheme and completing the resulting paperwork (anecdotally over £1000 per job) dissuades them from entering the heat pump business, so perpetuating it as a closed shop.

5th problem: householders cannot easily do the work themselves. If they fit even the smallest heat pumps it requires Planning Permission. The major heat pump manufacturers only offer extended warranty terms if they are fitted by an approved installer (in practice, an MCS registered firm).

 

So by keeping out the ordinary plumbers, and houselholders who are competent to fit their own systems, it is a nice business for MCS companies. But there are far too few of them to meet the target of xxx installations per year so the requirement to use them needs to be abolished if we are to get anywhere close to meeting those targets.>

 

There is a list of departments here.  It looks like the consumer desk is the one to go for: money@theguardian.com.  Isent mine to alan.evans@theguardian.com, (environmental) which is on the same list.

 

 

[JamesPa]

12 minutes ago, Bramco said:

Interestingly, we received an email from MCS checking the information on our install.  I'll copy the email below but first for context, our install was done by Nationwide who seem to be the in house installers for a Cool Energy 9kW ASHP.  The hot water cylinder and UFH buffer tank were already installed, so it was simply installing the ASHP and connecting things up to the existing tanks etc.  Total cost £5250, so with the grant it cost us £250.  Also, we already had all the heat loss calcs, so this wasn't needed in our case. It really was just a plumbing and electrics job - oh! and the MCS paperwork.  Took a day to do the install.

 

We did have some issues......  but that's another story.   We also had a hard time getting the MCS documentation - in fact it took a threat to report them following the MCS guide with a formal letter.  Funnily enough the documentation turned up by return of post.

 

Anyway, here's a copy of the email we received from MCS (I'm disinclined to reply as surely they have all this information and if their records aren't correct - who cares?).

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

We’re contacting you regarding your recent MCS certified renewable installation as part of the boiler upgrade scheme. MCS is a standards organisation. We create and maintain standards that allows for the certification of products, installers, and their installations. MCS is a mark of quality.  

We’d like to confirm with you that the information your installers have provided for your MCS certificate in your handover pack is correct. 

Can you please respond to the questions below so we can update our records.

1. Was the installation completed using the Boiler Upgrade Scheme?

2. Date installed/commissioned?

3. Your full address:

4. Air Source, Biomass or Ground Source installed?

5. Installers company name:

6. Heat pump location? E.g., Rear of property, side of property etc.

7. Water tank/cylinder location? E.g., Utility room, airing cupboard etc.

8. Handover pack received?

9. Are you happy with your installation?

10. The £5000.00 grant, was this discounted from your bill, or paid in full and refunded later?

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Strange?

 

Is the price install only or unit plus install.  if the latter a very good price.  Did they accept your/third party heat loss calculations or had they already done them?

Edited July 27, 2023 by JamesPa

[Bramco]

Just now, JamesPa said:

unit plus install.

 

Unit plus install...  😄  

 

We did spend a lot of time looking around and came across the Cool Energy units via this forum.

 

And don't forget it was only supply and install except for the MCS paperwork.

 

Simon

 

[Bramco]

5 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

I'm guessing this is MCS cross checking the info they received from the installer corresponds with what happened?

 

Probably but it seems a bit odd.  

 

Simon

[JamesPa]

4 minutes ago, Bramco said:

 

Unit plus install...  😄  

 

We did spend a lot of time looking around and came across the Cool Energy units via this forum.

 

And don't forget it was only supply and install except for the MCS paperwork.

 

Simon

 

Nevertheless a very good price baseline for supply and install only plus MCS, which is the proper starting point.  It shows how low things can go if you cut out the unnecessary/marginal/optional parts that installers love to add on so they have somewhere to hide an enormous margin.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by JamesPa

[sharpener]

56 minutes ago, Bramco said:

Interestingly, we received an email from MCS checking the information on our install.  I'll copy the email below but first for context, our install was done by Nationwide who seem to be the in house installers for a Cool Energy 9kW ASHP.  The hot water cylinder and UFH buffer tank were already installed, so it was simply installing the ASHP and connecting things up to the existing tanks etc.  Total cost £5250, so with the grant it cost us £250.  Also, we already had all the heat loss calcs, so this wasn't needed in our case. It really was just a plumbing and electrics job - oh! and the MCS paperwork.  Took a day to do the install.

 

How did this come about? Did you have the calcs and the design from another supplier? Did you fit the cylinder and buffer yourself beforehand? Were Nationwide happy about finishing off a part-complete project? Or have I got it all wrong?

[Beelbeebub]

45 minutes ago, Bramco said:

 

Unit plus install...  😄  

 

We did spend a lot of time looking around and came across the Cool Energy units via this forum.

 

And don't forget it was only supply and install except for the MCS paperwork.

 

Simon

 

So if I understand it was

- Turn up, remove old gas boiler & cap gas

- Install Hp outside

- drill holes in wall & connect to existing pipes

- connect up control system

- comission

- home for tea and biscuits.

 

For just over 5k including the HP?

 

That's the sort of price and install we should be aiming at.

[Bramco]

Sorry should have been clearer.

 

Ours was a self build BUS application, so no rip out of a gas boiler.  The DHW and UFH cylinders were already installed as part of the build contract by the builders plumber.  So as I said in the first post, the contract was simply to connect up to the existing cylinders.

 

We hadn't intended to install an ASHP until we'd had things up and running for a while, so we were using the immersions (2 in each) in the cylinders and Octopus Go low overnight rate for heating and hot water. The house is almost Passiv Haus.  But when we realised self build was also covered by the BUS, we decided to see if we could get a decent price.  And at £250 it was a kerching moment!!

 

Simon

[Bramco]

11 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Did you have the calcs and the design from another supplier?

 

We had a full M+E report which has the heat loss analysis.

 

12 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Did you fit the cylinder and buffer yourself beforehand?

 

See reply above.

 

13 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Were Nationwide happy about finishing off a part-complete project?

 

It wasn't a part-complete project. (as above).  It was an installation prepped for an ASHP. 

 

Simon

[JamesPa]

20 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

So if I understand it was

- Turn up, remove old gas boiler & cap gas

- Install Hp outside

- drill holes in wall & connect to existing pipes

- connect up control system

- comission

- home for tea and biscuits.

 

For just over 5k including the HP?

 

That's the sort of price and install we should be aiming at.

With a  retrofit where there is already a dhw cylinder and a hp that can achieve FT65 (or even FT60), why is anything else needed?  Maybe a cheap timer on the immersion to run a weekly disinfection and some easy to do rad upgrades.  No unknowns or risks so far as I can see.

Edited July 27, 2023 by JamesPa

[Bramco]

Just now, JamesPa said:

Maybe a cheap timer on the immersion to run a weekly disinfection.

 

And this has been discussed ad nauseum - is this necessary if the DHW is completely enclosed, i.e. unvented?

 

As an aside, we actually only use the HP for the UFH.  I worked out it was still cheaper to use the immersions on Octopus Go as we wanted to run the HP for UFH for as much of the 4 hour cheap Go window as possible, which would mean the HP for DHW working at the expensive rate.  Like most HPs DHW seems to have priority over UFH.

 

Simon

[sharpener]

8 minutes ago, Bramco said:

 

It wasn't a part-complete project. (as above).  It was an installation prepped for an ASHP.

 

Ah, slightly unusual situation. Well done, Cool Energy seem to have a good rep on here, are you pleased with it? (You allude to problems)

 

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

It looks like the consumer desk is the one to go for: money@theguardian.com.  Isent mine to alan.evans@theguardian.com, (environmental) which is on the same list.

 

Have sent my three penn'orth to both, will see what happens.

 

[JamesPa]

13 minutes ago, Bramco said:

19 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Maybe a cheap timer on the immersion to run a weekly disinfection.

 

And this has been discussed ad nauseum - is this necessary if the DHW is completely enclosed, i.e. unvented?

Just backside covering so far as I know.

[Bramco]

3 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Cool Energy seem to have a good rep on here, are you pleased with it? (You allude to problems)

 

Yes - the issues were to do with one of their guys who decided after talking to our sparky that we only wanted UFH connecting, so didn't bring a 3 way valve. They also didn't bring the correct parts to connect to the UFH tank, even though they'd done a site visit, so on the day I had to get out to a plumbers merchant to fetch the parts.  I wasn't happy that day.

 

He'd also somehow not got the connections to the temperature sensors right - end result, the ASHP thought things were cooler than they were and kept running. But because the tanks was actually hot enough and getting hotter and hotter, the ASHP finally cut out when the HP internal temperature limit was reached which spits out an alarm and shuts down.   Several emails later where they were blaming the tanks and telling me I needed to replace the tanks, they finally accepted my analysis and came and rewired the sensors and things are now working fine.  We'd installed Newark ASHP tanks.

 

We do though get some dynamic resonance which is mainly on the DHW tank - a result I think of the fact that Newark use corrugated coils.  I need to get to the bottom of this sometime....

 

Simon

[sharpener]

23 minutes ago, Bramco said:

He'd also somehow not got the connections to the temperature sensors right - end result, the ASHP thought things were cooler than they were and kept running.

 

Maddening. A friend of mine had a newbuild where they had wired the room stats to all the UFH actuators completely at random so the entire house went into wild oscillations. Sounds like the same kind of thing.

[Bramco]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

A friend of mine had a newbuild where they had wired the room stats to all the UFH actuators completely at random so the entire house went into wild oscillations.

 

That sounds like fun!!

 

What was maddening about our situation was that I had to set out the logic of what it was doing before they'd row back from the sucking teeth and 'you need a new cylinder'!    A lot of people that hadn't informed themselves would have simply gone along with the replacement cylinder at another 3 or 4 grand.

 

Simon

[sharpener]

6 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Just backside covering so far as I know.

 

I have my immersion which is fed from the solar diverter set to 55C, and it has priority over the separate thermostat for the oil boiler which is set to 50C.

 

They were originally 5K higher but the rainwater dissolved copper from the pipework which ended up as a green deposit in the shower tray.

 

Never had a problem with any organisms, perhaps they are poisoned by all the Cu?

 

Shipbuilders would put a copper coin under the foot of the mast as it prevents fungal attack.

[ProDave]

6 hours ago, Bramco said:

We do though get some dynamic resonance which is mainly on the DHW tank - a result I think of the fact that Newark use corrugated coils.  I need to get to the bottom of this sometime....

Do you mean the tank is making a noise when heating DHW, perhaps a rattling sort of sound coming from inside the tank?

 

I had this with my Telford tank.  By trial and error I cured it by opening up the bypass valve so it was bypassing water all the time.

 

I think the issue was the heat pump demands such a high water flow rate, that flow rate was more than the tank input coil was happy with.  I couldn't just turn down the pump or the HP would trip on low water flow rate, so allowing some water to bypass the tank seemed to "fix" it.