Gas boiler lobby obstructing heatpumps

[JohnMo]

19 minutes ago, HughF said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185631610657?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=yawjptzcrle&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Interesting..... I wonder who makes this...

I did an image search a while ago and comes up the Chinese selling site. (Forgot the name). Never heard of the maker before, but it half the price from China direct

[JohnMo]

You need some bells and whistles to install their heat pump if you are not using their cylinder, a heat pump module and their controls in addition to the ASHP, or an interface and 3rd party controls.

[HughF]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

You need some bells and whistles to install their heat pump if you are not using their cylinder, a heat pump module and their controls in addition to the ASHP, or an interface and 3rd party controls.

My 150ltr slimline has zero parts on it apart from a 3 port... It's as generic as you can get.

[sharpener]

42 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Absolutely perfect, it says nothing so imposes no silly constraints.

 

 

No, but following the option of "Bespoke Layout - speak to your Installer" imposes in practice whatever constraints they or the company choose to believe.

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

No, but following the option of "Bespoke Layout - speak to your Installer" imposes in practice whatever constraints they or the company choose to believe.

Yes but that will always be the case with installers.  At least with no constraints from Vaillant they can't hide behind an immovable third party.

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

Yes but that will always be the case with installers.  At least with no constraints from Vaillant they can't hide behind an immovable third party.

 

Not so, wrt non-standard ideas like adding an HX or secondary pump, the installers refer back to Vaillant as discussed upthread for anything that is not in their book of approved schematics (which I have). It doesn't make much difference to the end user if this is bc it is a term of their approved installer status or just backside covering, it is what the 3 who have quoted all do.

 

And there are constraints from Vaillant, the allowable relationship between HP output and (Vaillant) cylinders is published in the cylinder literature extract above - at roughly 7kW/m^2; the advice from their tech support is even more restrictive at 4. Whether they will accept any third party cylinder as compliant is conjectural, I can't demonstrate that the surface area of my OSO cylinder is 3 m^2 so they won't agree to it.

 

No reply to my latest missive as yet (nor from the Guardian).

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by sharpener

[Beelbeebub]

Just a side note:

 

I've mentioned the "magic" CoP of 2.5 a few times.  This is the efficiency a heatpump needs to hit so that less gas is burned in a gas power station to provide heat in the home than if that gas was burned in a boiler to produce the same heat.

 

2.5 is derived from the assumption that the efficency of electric power delivered to consumer Vs calorific value of gas was 40%.

 

That was slightly outdated. It looks like the UK grid has got a bit more efficient and the generation at plant is now 49%, which with 5% transmission losses gives a final value a bit above 0.45. this would require the HP to achieve a magic CoP of 2.2 which is very doable for modern HPs and certainly possible for SCoP.

 

This calculation is based on the actual UK CCGT station performance (49%) Apparently (for reasons I don't know, possibly a newer fleet) Spanish CCGTs hit 55%, which would drop the magic CoP to less than 2.0. 

 

 

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

 

Not so, wrt non-standard ideas like adding an HX or secondary pump, the installers refer back to Vaillant as discussed upthread for anything that is not in their book of approved schematics (which I have). It doesn't make much difference to the end user if this is bc it is a term of their approved installer status or just backside covering, it is what the 3 who have quoted all do.

 

And there are constraints from Vaillant, the allowable relationship between HP output and (Vaillant) cylinders is published in the cylinder literature extract above - at roughly 7kW/m^2; the advice from their tech support is even more restrictive at 4. Whether they will accept any third party cylinder as compliant is conjectural, I can't demonstrate that the surface area of my OSO cylinder is 3 m^2 so they won't agree to it.

 

No reply to my latest missive as yet (nor from the Guardian).

 

That begs more questions than it answers, no fault of yours, the fault of vaillant.  Eg

 

Are the as restrictive with gas boilers?

Who is taking responsibility for the system design, installer or Vaillant?

A 'rule of thumb' is not a design, will they give a more specific answer to a vaillant installer or will they give an equally vague answer which gives them a get out but doesn't protect you or the installer in any way?

Is the whole thing just a way to make their 7 year guarantee in practice 'at their option'?

Having regard to the above is their 7 year guarantee worth the paper it's printed on?

Do they actually want to sell heat pumps, or do they prefer to sell boilers?

 

and several other questions.

 

 

 

 

[JohnMo]

12 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

their 7 year guarantee worth the paper it's printed on?

Is any long warranty worth it. Car manufacturer give huge bodywork warranty, but small print states the body has to inspected and corrosion treated replaced as needed etc. Look at the service book this section is rarely signed off by the garage when you get a service. 

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

Not so, wrt non-standard ideas like adding an HX or secondary pump, the installers refer back to Vaillant as discussed upthread for anything that is not in their book of approved schematics (which I have). It doesn't make much difference to the end user if this is bc it is a term of their approved installer status or just backside covering, it is what the 3 who have quoted all do.

 

And there are constraints from Vaillant, the allowable relationship between HP output and (Vaillant) cylinders is published in the cylinder literature extract above - at roughly 7kW/m^2; the advice from their tech support is even more restrictive at 4. Whether they will accept any third party cylinder as compliant is conjectural, I can't demonstrate that the surface area of my OSO cylinder is 3 m^2 so they won't agree to it.

 

No reply to my latest missive as yet (nor from the Guardian).

 

The more I think about this the more it exemplifies a structural problem.  We simply don't, in this part of industry, properly differentiate between component design/specification and system design/specification.

 

Vaillant, Mitsubishi etc are making one or more components of a heating system.  They don't attempt to make them all, and they don't attempt to ensure that all the cases where their components are used meet the customer spec.  So what they need to do is provide as much info as possible on their component, guarantee that for as long as they see fit however it's used (so long as the interfaces to their component aren't violated), and butt out of everything else.  They can of course provide application examples, but these are examples only not constraining.

 

The system designer then needs to take the specs of the various components available and assemble them into a system that meets the customer spec.  

 

The component supplier warrants the components as long as the interface conditions aren't violated.  The system designer warrants the system.

 

This is well established in eg electronics, and if component designers in electronics interfered in system design in the way you describe Vaillant as doing (but without actually taking responsibility) electronic systems would not have progressed anything like as quickly as they have.

 

Of course one problem is that we don't really have domestic central heating system designers, we have plumbers.  They can solder together the electronic components but aren't trained, in most cases, to work out which order to solder them together in.

 

So the component designer (vaillant) tries to step in, but in doing so makes any system design sub optimal, particularly in a retrofit situation where certain things are already in place.

 

Imagine if Intel, rather than sticking to making comprehensively specified microprocessors, tried half heartedly to provide guidelines on their use and restricted their warranty to people who referred back to them for every departure from those guidelines.   Would we have the diversity of microprocessor based systems we have today?

 

In an ideal world the heating system design industry would step up, and the heating component manufacturing industry would provide comprehensive interface and performance specifications and otherwise butt out.   Will this happen?  Probably not, because the boiler/hp manufacturers regard themselves as the heart of the system (no more so in fact that a microprocessor is) and we don't, for the most part, have a system design industry, we have a bunch of artisanal fitters (there are of course exceptions).

 

For anyone with an engineering background or skill, or anyone that wants to do something even slightly out of the ordinary, that is massively frustrating.  The average person, however, is probably oblivious both to the lost opportunity and the extra cost.

 

 

[sharpener]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Who is taking responsibility for the system design, installer or Vaillant?

 

Vaillant do. In addition they have a field engineer force who will come and troubleshoot installations done in line with HQ approved designs, whether generic or custom. You can also call them out to fine-tune your system e.g. after the first year, said to be well worth the £300 or so. Or so I glean from e.g. the facebook group.

 

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Is the whole thing just a way to make their 7 year guarantee in practice 'at their option'?

 

I think it's more about a priori risk reduction. No reason to suppose they don't honour the warranty provided it is installed by their own lights.

 

57 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

This is well established in eg electronics, and if component designers in electronics interfered in system design in the way you describe Vaillant as doing (but without actually taking responsibility) electronic systems would not have progressed anything like as quickly as they have.

 

One of my interests was analogue circuit design - which is why my home-made immersion diverter uses an analogue multiplier IC to get the real-time product of the voltage and current waveforms and hence measure the signed true export power flow.

 

In this field it is maybe a bit different from digital ICs, as Analog Devices, National Semiconductor and so on published very extensive application notes with typical component values and pcb details. So the technician can build working circuits quite easily but also the professional engineer can study the examples, understand the principles and come up with novel designs.

 

Vaillant's standard schematics are analogous to the application notes. I don't regard it as interference so much as a response to a complete absence of the involvement of professional engineers, in the domestic market at any rate.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by sharpener

[JamesPa]

9 hours ago, sharpener said:

So the technician can build working circuits quite easily but also the professional engineer can study the examples, understand the principles and come up with novel designs.

The key to innovation and flexibility is surely is the second part of this sentence, which Vaillant appear to prevent based on what you say.

 

Are their registered installers actually prevented (by threat of guarantee withdrawal) from departing from hq guidelines/rules of thumb or whatever they call them, or are they free to depart if they choose to, with Vaillant withdrawing only the relevant parts of any guarantee?

 

You mentioned you had the book of approved system designs, any chance of a link please?

Edited August 4, 2023 by JamesPa

[DanDee]

38 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

You mentioned you had the book of approved system designs, any chance of a link please?

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-plus/arotherm-plus-1/quick-guides/all-schematics-wiring-notes-1799366-2626556.pdf

[JohnMo]

Here's some Viessmann ones also

 

Download - UK Schematics.pdf

[JamesPa]

10 hours ago, sharpener said:

12 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Who is taking responsibility for the system design, installer or Vaillant?

 

Vaillant do. In addition they have a field engineer force who will come and troubleshoot installations done in line with HQ approved designs, whether generic or custom. You can also call them out to fine-tune your system e.g. after the first year, said to be well worth the £300 or so. Or so I glean from e.g. the facebook group.

 

Thanks to @DanDee for posting the link.  There seems to be some ambiguity over who takes responsibility - see the text which appears above the schematics.  I think the key question remains:

 

Are their registered installers actually prevented (by threat of guarantee withdrawal) from departing from hq guidelines/rules of thumb or whatever they call them, or are they free to depart if they choose to, with Vaillant withdrawing only the relevant parts of any guarantee?  

 

The latter it seems to me is entirely fair, the former not so.

[DanDee]

43 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

 

Thanks to @DanDee for posting the link.  There seems to be some ambiguity over who takes responsibility - see the text which appears above the schematics.  I think the key question remains:

 

Are their registered installers actually prevented (by threat of guarantee withdrawal) from departing from hq guidelines/rules of thumb or whatever they call them, or are they free to depart if they choose to, with Vaillant withdrawing only the relevant parts of any guarantee?  

 

The latter it seems to me is entirely fair, the former not so.

 

That's just telling everyone that those schematics are just an example, and that ultimately the person planning and installing a system is the one responsible to make sure everything is technically safe and sound.

It has nothing to do with any product represented in the schematics, or the actual warranty contract one is involved when buying Vaillant products.

[JamesPa]

20 minutes ago, DanDee said:

 

That's just telling everyone that those schematics are just an example, and that ultimately the person planning and installing a system is the one responsible to make sure everything is technically safe and sound.

It has nothing to do with any product represented in the schematics, or the actual warranty contract one is involved when buying Vaillant products.

Which is very logical, however @sharpenerstates upthread that Vaillant take responsibility for the system design if a registered installer is used.

[DanDee]

3 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Which is very logical, however @sharpenerstates upthread that Vaillant take responsibility for the system design if a registered installer is used.

correct, as the installer will use these schematics as guidance(even thought they are what needs to be done), presents to Vaillant what they want to do and Vaillant gives them the OK. It's just that they had to put some disclaimers on some of these documents, because ultimately it's what is being done on site that matters, warranty wise.

 

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, DanDee said:

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-plus/arotherm-plus-1/quick-guides/all-schematics-wiring-notes-1799366-2626556.pdf

 

Yes that's the one I have been using.

 

Agree with your comments on interpretation of the boilerplate.

 

I imagine that the degree of oversight by Vaillant will, like any other commercial relationship, depend inter alia on how long the installer has been on the approved list, how often he wants to install "specials", how much aggro there has been in the past, what warranty claims there have been etc.

 

As installers get referrals from the Vaillant "Find an installer" service they will not want to do anything to prejudice this situation. That would include making lots of requests for design approval relative to the number of HPs they actually install, and putting in systems which may result in warranty claims or requests for troubleshooting. So as there is plenty of work around they can afford to play safe.

 

Or so it would seem to me. Having been Business Manager of a contract R & D company I can see this from several different points of view.

 

[JamesPa]

47 minutes ago, sharpener said:

 

Yes that's the one I have been using.

 

Agree with your comments on interpretation of the boilerplate.

 

I imagine that the degree of oversight by Vaillant will, like any other commercial relationship, depend inter alia on how long the installer has been on the approved list, how often he wants to install "specials", how much aggro there has been in the past, what warranty claims there have been etc.

 

As installers get referrals from the Vaillant "Find an installer" service they will not want to do anything to prejudice this situation. That would include making lots of requests for design approval relative to the number of HPs they actually install, and putting in systems which may result in warranty claims or requests for troubleshooting. So as there is plenty of work around they can afford to play safe.

 

Or so it would seem to me. Having been Business Manager of a contract R & D company I can see this from several different points of view.

 

Given all of which is there any realistic chance of persuading Vaillant or a Vaillant specs installer to reuse an existing cylinder with a typical 0.7 sq m coil or is it a lost cause notwithstanding the devastating consequences of the wholly unavoidable continued use of fossil fuels they are effectively encouraging.

[JohnMo]

Legally your contract is with the installer, they have full legal responsibility for all that they are employed to. And if MCS that is full design, install, and commissioning. If they take advise from the manufacturer that is legally nothing to with their contract with you.

 

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

however @sharpenerstates upthread that Vaillant take responsibility for the system design if a registered installer is used.

That manufacturers responsibility is between the installer/manufacturer and nothing to do with the end user. Your recourse is via the legal agreement with the company you employed.

[JamesPa]

4 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Legally your contract is with the installer, they have full legal responsibility for all that they are employed to. And if MCS that is full design, install, and commissioning. If they take advise from the manufacturer that is legally nothing to with their contract with you.

 

That manufacturers responsibility is between the installer/manufacturer and nothing to do with the end user. Your recourse is via the legal agreement with the company you employed.

Of course, but there is nothing to stop Vaillant from indemnifying the installer against claims.

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Of course, but there is nothing to stop Vaillant from indemnifying the installer against claims.

But why would they and where would it stop. Even if they did that's still between the installer and manufacturer not the end user.

 

So taking it step further even if a manufacture say yes, you can install on any cylinder, the installer

/designer has to carry the legal can, if it goes wrong and they get multiple call backs, because it is rubbish at heating.

 

Any bad advice given by the manufacturer is between the installer/designer and manufacturer, not the end user. You have no contractual relationship with the manufacturer.

 

So likely hood of anyone agreeing to install a heat pump on a small coil cylinder is remote at best.

[JamesPa]

25 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

 

 

So likely hood of anyone agreeing to install a heat pump on a small coil cylinder is remote at best.

If that's the case, and I fear you are right, we can forget any prospect of heat pumps being installed in the quantity we need to deal with climate change without continued government subsidy, which won't happen.

 

Curtains for heat pumps and humanity.  The gas boiler lobby has won, thanks to the heat pump industry.

 

Seriously.  If anyone can see a route to heat pump installs which is both financially viable (for the average person not the privileged few) and viable in terms of disruption, but where you nevertheless rip out a perfectly functional DHW system, please come forward!

Edited August 4, 2023 by JamesPa

[DanDee]

26 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

If that's the case, and I fear you are right, we can forget any prospect of heat pumps being installed in the quantity we need to deal with climate change without continued government subsidy, which won't happen.

 

Curtains for heat pumps and humanity.  The gas boiler lobby has won, thanks to the heat pump industry.

 

Seriously.  If anyone can see a route to heat pump installs which is both financially viable (for the average person not the privileged few) and viable in terms of disruption, but where you nevertheless rip out a perfectly functional DHW system, please come forward!

 

There are millions of heat pumps to be installed outside your particular case, from electric only, oil boilers, gas boilers without DHW cylinder, gas boilers with DHW cylinder that needs to be changed and new builds. There are not enough installers to meet the demand without you particular case anyway.

 

The most important hurdles being overpricing and lack of control over the end result.