Super_Paulie Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 (edited) hi guys, is there any reason why i cant do the following: Both 2 port valves side by side on the first floor. It would streamline my plumbing to do so as my manifold area is getting quite bogged down with things, so looking at any positive/negatives for that. I can have a valve down at the manifold if i really to, so i guess its either or. My preference is both up there to keep them together. Any reason i shouldn't do this, @Nickfromwales, you are the fountain of knowledge on here so i take what you say as gospel, but im open to any advice from all you fine gentlemen/women/others. Size is not to scale, obviously i need to run the cables to the wiring center and UFH is for the entire ground floor also. Edited June 27, 2023 by Super_Paulie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 23 hours ago, Super_Paulie said: hi guys, is there any reason why i cant do the following: Both 2 port valves side by side on the first floor. It would streamline my plumbing to do so as my manifold area is getting quite bogged down with things, so looking at any positive/negatives for that. I can have a valve down at the manifold if i really to, so i guess its either or. My preference is both up there to keep them together. Any reason i shouldn't do this, @Nickfromwales, you are the fountain of knowledge on here so i take what you say as gospel, but im open to any advice from all you fine gentlemen/women/others. Size is not to scale, obviously i need to run the cables to the wiring center and UFH is for the entire ground floor also. I almost always keep the zone valves at the heat source, as it’s just easier to valve downstream of them and isolate locally for service / replacement. They’re just a gate, so it doesn’t really matter where you locate them, they just arrest flow. Option 1 gets the 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: I almost always keep the zone valves at the heat source, as it’s just easier to valve downstream of them and isolate locally for service / replacement. They’re just a gate, so it doesn’t really matter where you locate them, they just arrest flow. Option 1 gets the 👍 Nick, thanks a bunch. Sorry for calling you out, but you seem to be the guru on here and its to your credit, cant thank you enough for the time. I plan on installing the 2-ports in the void/cupboard within the old chimney breast, the existing pipes run up to the boiler on the side of the breast. Would you agree to the (simplified for clarity) diagram attached? 2 full-bore butterflies (levers?) just below the ports for the possible exchanges of the valves? This forum and people like yourself have really spurred me on in what is my first big renovation. (UFH and inevitable short-cycling still to come...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 51 minutes ago, Super_Paulie said: Nick, thanks a bunch. Sorry for calling you out, but you seem to be the guru on here and its to your credit, cant thank you enough for the time. I plan on installing the 2-ports in the void/cupboard within the old chimney breast, the existing pipes run up to the boiler on the side of the breast. Would you agree to the (simplified for clarity) diagram attached? 2 full-bore butterflies (levers?) just below the ports for the possible exchanges of the valves? This forum and people like yourself have really spurred me on in what is my first big renovation. (UFH and inevitable short-cycling still to come...) Yup. No issues there, but why not install a buffer now? These can be compact and fit into tight places. This one’s a 50L wall mounted version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 ive been looking into it as im new to the UFH gamer and hadnt even considered the short cycle until recently, in fact didnt even know it was a thing.... im struggling for space to fit a tank, the house is pretty minimalist living so the only place would be in the loft and even that is tight... The one in the picture actually looks pretty tidy though, havent seen one that slim during my research, any idea what model it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 LINK Select 25 or 50L option as required. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 thats interesting. As my downstairs is the only place to have the UFH, it is basically 2 rooms. A 4mx4m front room and a much larger wrap around that is all open plan, maybe triple that size. I could treat the entire downstairs as a single zone, it likely wouldnt be an issue to do so and it would likely eliminate the short cycle? it would just mean i dont get that control of the smaller room, but will that even be an issue i wonder... Would i be right in thinking that the buffer goes within the flow and return just after the boiler and the wiring centre (Heatmiser UH8) will connect to the buffer instead of the boiler call for heat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Two ways to plumb a buffer 4 port basically goes between flow and return. Or two port goes in the return only. Any mixing in the 2 port doesn't affect boiler or heat pump efficiency, where in a 4 port it most likely will, unless the buffer is big and well designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 28, 2023 Author Share Posted June 28, 2023 Been looking at the 4 port tanks, especially the one Nick suggested there, the volano termico. As well as sounding like a hell of a drink it looks pretty nice as well and I have the room for it. Looking at it and working out how to connect it, does it simply sit within the flow and returns (before the zone valves) or is it specifically on the flow and return for the UFH? also it seems to have no electrics at all, so my wiring center would still connect to the boiler "call for heat" as before? This sounds ideal as it's getting more complicated than I initially had hoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 A 4 port can be connected as a 2 port, just flow in the top and out the bottom connection, blank the other two ports off. You would normally have the buffer position so all the flow goes through it for the whole heating system, so after your return tee (UFH and radiators) for a return line two port. Item 12 in the attached drawing If you want to do it across flow and return, install instead of the bypass like this 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 right, i think im with you guys. Sorry, hard to get your head around this the first time around and your input is much appreciated. So are you saying simply attaching the buffer tank within the return, blanking off the other ports, and it just sits there "dumb" with no control is the best way to go? And my wiring centre just operates as normal, calling for heat from the boiler whenever a zone asks for it. So i guess kinda like the attached (simplified): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 Basically yes, it's just adding system volume, to give the boiler something to work on, when just a zone or two is on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Super_Paulie said: right, i think im with you guys. Sorry, hard to get your head around this the first time around and your input is much appreciated. So are you saying simply attaching the buffer tank within the return, blanking off the other ports, and it just sits there "dumb" with no control is the best way to go? And my wiring centre just operates as normal, calling for heat from the boiler whenever a zone asks for it. So i guess kinda like the attached (simplified): Yup. It would be better if the buffer could stay within the heated envelope, but it does come with quite an excellent insulated jacket. You'll need to insulate the pipework very well of course, but losses should be minimal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 yeah the downside is that i have literally no where to put a tank in the way the house is being set up, its relatively small and minimalist. I'll check tonight but i should be able to get a tank in the loft right next to the boiler, in fact may be able to get a larger floor standing one, the loft is fully boarded out and has nothing but the missus's shoes in it... That ebay link and their store @Nickfromwales are sold out of the 50l sadly, but i have emailed them. There is a "new" one on ebay for 200 notes which i could possibly go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 this tank seems more readily available, any experience with this one? its floor mounted but they have a wall mounted one available as well, just need to check my available space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 Scrub that, the room I have available is ideal for that Cordivari... That's the one I think I'm going to go for, although it seems sold out everywhere for some reason other than a private sale on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Super_Paulie said: Scrub that, the room I have available is ideal for that Cordivari... That's the one I think I'm going to go for, although it seems sold out everywhere for some reason other than a private sale on eBay. Offer them £200, and a link to the other one!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Offer them £200, and a link to the other one!! Done and ordered. Onwards and upwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted June 30, 2023 Author Share Posted June 30, 2023 ok, I think this is how i will do it, would someone be able to sanity check it for me please, thanks in advance! Am i ok to run full-bore butterfly valves under these 2-ports, dont have much room (im aware the 2-ports are upside down in the photo, was just to keep the cable out of the way) Id assume a wise man would also have another couple of butterfly isolation valves on the return just before and after the buffer tank, seeing as its the highest point in the system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 Ok, well despite what I said above, here is my hopefully final attempt. It dawned on me that I need access to the flow upstream of the valves so I can have a towel rail hot whenever the boiler is fired no matter if it was radiators or UFH and to have it also act as a bypass? So I've came up with this. Hopefully this is all present and correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 If you are putting flow through the bathroom rads any time the boiler is running, if you don't have TRV's on those radiators, so flow never closes off, but instead balance them so they don't overheat the rooms, then you could delete the bypass valve altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, JohnMo said: If you are putting flow through the bathroom rads any time the boiler is running, if you don't have TRV's on those radiators, so flow never closes off, but instead balance them so they don't overheat the rooms, then you could delete the bypass valve altogether. That's what I was hoping. The bathroom is only small, 3x3 so a small radiator/towel rail with no trv was my thoughts and bin off the bypass. That'll work right? Seems a nice day for plumbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Looks good! I would have like to see another valve the other side of the valve just like a pump, all helps with future maintemance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, TonyT said: Looks good! I would have like to see another valve the other side of the valve just like a pump, all helps with future maintemance I know what you mean but space is an absolute premium sadly. I could do it, but it would be a multitude of bends to get things back where I need them. Hopefully maintenance will be few and far between and draining down the top leg of this shouldn't be too much hassle... We'll see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughF Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 18 hours ago, Super_Paulie said: I know what you mean but space is an absolute premium sadly. I could do it, but it would be a multitude of bends to get things back where I need them. Hopefully maintenance will be few and far between and draining down the top leg of this shouldn't be too much hassle... We'll see! Clevercouplers will help you when it comes to zone valve removal, worth looking at. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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