Vacuum Insulated Panels - any recommendations in the UK

[bmj1]

Hi All,

 

I've found myself with just 120mm of floor build up above Ground Floor block and beam solid concrete floor.

 

I'm trying to figure out what our floor build up can look like to enable us to have underfloor heating, here is where I've got to:

 

• 50mm - VIPs
• 50mm - liquid screed / underfloor heating
• 20mm - floor

 

A) Can this work ?

B) Any recommendations in terms of VIP flooring providers ?

 

Thank you in advance !

Edited June 2, 2023 by bmj1

[Dave Jones]

always annoying when the build up below damp isnt designed properly.

 

You will struggle to pass building regs even with 100mm of celotex. can you lose ceiling height ?

 

I think your best option is to remove the blocks and replace with insulated ones.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Dave Jones

[bmj1]

58 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

always annoying when the build up below damp isnt designed properly.

 

You will struggle to pass building regs even with 100mm of celotex. can you lose ceiling height ?

 

I think your best option is to remove the blocks and replace with insulated ones.

 

That's an interesting idea. It actually was designed right, but the implementation was botched...

 

So you are suggesting that we remove the blocks between the beams, and replace with insulated ones. Neat.

 

Any blocks you have in mind ?

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, bmj1 said:

 

That's an interesting idea. It actually was designed right, but the implementation was botched...

 

So you are suggesting that we remove the blocks between the beams, and replace with insulated ones. Neat.

 

Any blocks you have in mind ?

No affiliation, but I quite like this system / offering. Others are out there, but some do not "under-sling" as these do.

 

https://springvale.com/beamshield/

[Dave Jones]

couple systems if you have a search, you will still have a large area of cold bridging from the beams but it will still be miles better. 50mm celtox over the top / 50mm screed.

[Thorfun]

will also probably be a lot cheaper to replace the blocks that to go for VIPs!! also VIPs are made to specific dimensions, can't be cut/trimmed and run a high risk of being damaged and then made useless.

[saveasteading]

Are we to assume that the walls and upper floor are built and can't be raised? 

 

Any access space under the b and b floor to fix insulation beneath it?

[bmj1]

 

9 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Are we to assume that the walls and upper floor are built and can't be raised? 

 

Any access space under the b and b floor to fix insulation beneath it?

 

9 hours ago, Thorfun said:

will also probably be a lot cheaper to replace the blocks that to go for VIPs!! also VIPs are made to specific dimensions, can't be cut/trimmed and run a high risk of being damaged and then made useless.

 

12 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

couple systems if you have a search, you will still have a large area of cold bridging from the beams but it will still be miles better. 50mm celtox over the top / 50mm screed.

 

22 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

No affiliation, but I quite like this system / offering. Others are out there, but some do not "under-sling" as these do.

 

https://springvale.com/beamshield/

 

Wow - thank you all so much. I really like the sound of this solution vs VIPs, both for ease of installation and also durability over lifetime of the house.

 

Yes, I can confirm the walls and upper floor are built.

 

Is removing the concrete blocks from the beam+block floor still doable at this stage ? It looks to me like it is sealed in somehow ?

 

Here is how the floor looks right now...

 

[Nickfromwales]

VIP's will also bankrupt you  

Knock the blocks out, sell them for hardcore, and insulate with the beam(fill) insulation option(s). You pay for insulation once, and energy to heat for the rest of your life.

"Fabric first, people!!". 

 

You might want to watch the tyre on the wheelbarrow. Looks like it may be over-inflated.

 

16 minutes ago, bmj1 said:

It looks to me like it is sealed in somehow ?

It's a cement based slurry, often referred to as "grouting" the blocks in. Once you get one block out, by destroying it, the others usually can be knocked up and out. Do this by tapping (hitting) them up from the underside with a sledgehammer.

[bmj1]

19 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

VIP's will also bankrupt you  

Knock the blocks out, sell them for hardcore, and insulate with the beam(fill) insulation option(s). You pay for insulation once, and energy to heat for the rest of your life.

"Fabric first, people!!". 

 

You might want to watch the tyre on the wheelbarrow. Looks like it may be over-inflated.

 

It's a cement based slurry, often referred to as "grouting" the blocks in. Once you get one block out, by destroying it, the others usually can be knocked up and out. Do this by tapping (hitting) them up from the underside with a sledgehammer.

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Can anyone recommend alternatives to Beamshield ? Planning to hit the phones hard on Monday AM and would be good to have 2 or 3 companies in mind to tap up for this.

 

I did look at Milbank Warmfloor Pro, but they appear to require 75mm of concrete on top, which is self-defeating in terms of minimising floor build-up...

 

Thanks in advance

Edited June 3, 2023 by bmj1

[saveasteading]

These blocks should knock out upwards easily. There is just a skim of cement slurry by the looks if it. The first block in any row may have to be smashed down. After that I would expect them to come out whole.

 

Then polystyrene or pir placed in between the t beams.  They are not terribly strong so I am wondering whether you should first lay some thin board.

OR,  instead of normal screed, perhaps add steel mesh.

 

I also wonder if a thin layer of insulation can be placed over the whole floor before the screed, to provide z thermal break over the beams.

20mm pir, 60mm screed.??

[bmj1]

16 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

These blocks should knock out upwards easily. There is just a skim of cement slurry by the looks if it. The first block in any row may have to be smashed down. After that I would expect them to come out whole.

 

Then polystyrene or pir placed in between the t beams.  They are not terribly strong so I am wondering whether you should first lay some thin board.

OR,  instead of normal screed, perhaps add steel mesh.

 

I also wonder if a thin layer of insulation can be placed over the whole floor before the screed, to provide z thermal break over the beams.

20mm pir, 60mm screed.??

 

Honestly, that's a relief to hear !

 

We're planning underfloor heating, and my preference was liquid screed (I think we can get this down to ~50mm ?).

 

I've got 120mm total to play with above the beam/block floor, minus say 20mm for the floor finish and 50mm for liquid screed.. So room for PIR or some kind of board or potentially both..

[bmj1]

Just to add, here is my floor layout (this photo taken 9 months ago when we were at this stage)

 

[Nickfromwales]

Where are you building? If you don't mind me asking?

Are there a lot of load-bearing walls rising?

[bmj1]

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Where are you building? If you don't mind me asking?

Are there a lot of load-bearing walls rising?

 

London. Load bearing walls are all on the perimeter. I wonder if they over ordered the T-Beams and didn't have anything else to do with them..

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, bmj1 said:

didn't have anything else to do with them..

T beams are used close together to support an increased load, so I'd expect to see these are under walls or stair or some such. In which case you would not put insulation at that point.

[Nickfromwales]

8 hours ago, bmj1 said:

 

London. Load bearing walls are all on the perimeter. I wonder if they over ordered the T-Beams and didn't have anything else to do with them..

Yup, I asked as I don't think I've ever seen so many on one domestic floor before!! I lost count at 15 seemingly unnecessary beams . The problem is, where these are there will be huge thermal (cold) bridges to address, so wondered if any could be cut out. This appears to be a can of worms tbh. 

[bmj1]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yup, I asked as I don't think I've ever seen so many on one domestic floor before!! I lost count at 15 seemingly unnecessary beams . The problem is, where these are there will be huge thermal (cold) bridges to address, so wondered if any could be cut out. This appears to be a can of worms tbh. 

 

Agreed. We will work through it

[bmj1]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yup, I asked as I don't think I've ever seen so many on one domestic floor before!! I lost count at 15 seemingly unnecessary beams . The problem is, where these are there will be huge thermal (cold) bridges to address, so wondered if any could be cut out. This appears to be a can of worms tbh. 

 

I'll need to review the walls above. We've done concrete blocks for the walls above, so might not be totally unnecessary!

[Nickfromwales]

20 hours ago, bmj1 said:

Load bearing walls are all on the perimeter.

 

6 hours ago, bmj1 said:

We've done concrete blocks for the walls above, so might not be totally unnecessary!

Are you saying block walls upstairs? What is the first floor made up from? Another B&B level / posi-joists / other?

[bmj1]

10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Are you saying block walls upstairs? What is the first floor made up from? Another B&B level / posi-joists / other?

 

We've got B&B upstairs, but none of the internal walls are structural, upper floor sits on steel posts at the perimeter, and steel beams running across the floor span.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, bmj1 said:

 

We've got B&B upstairs, but none of the internal walls are structural, upper floor sites on steel posts at the perimeter, and steel beams running across the floor span.

Why B&B 1st floor?? Massive OTT.

[Dave Jones]

sounds like the builder had shares in litecast .....

[Nickfromwales]

Some builders just can't take the needle off the record. Soooo much concrete and blocks!

 

The ship has sailed, so onwards we must go!

 

On 02/06/2023 at 18:10, bmj1 said:

Hi All,

 

I've found myself with just 120mm of floor build up above Ground Floor block and beam solid concrete floor.

 

I'm trying to figure out what our floor build up can look like to enable us to have underfloor heating, here is where I've got to:

 

• 50mm - VIPs
• 50mm - liquid screed / underfloor heating
• 20mm - floor

 

A) Can this work ?

B) Any recommendations in terms of VIP flooring providers ?

 

Thank you in advance !

 

What has the building control officer specified? How do you plan on meeting the minimum standard that they will mandate, especially for a heated floor? Should be around 140mm of PIR under this. What has been requested?

[bmj1]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Some builders just can't take the needle off the record. Soooo much concrete and blocks!

 

The ship has sailed, so onwards we must go!

 

 

What has the building control officer specified? How do you plan on meeting the minimum standard that they will mandate, especially for a heated floor? Should be around 140mm of PIR under this. What has been requested?

 

Ok, so spent some more time on site this morning...!

 

Good news mostly. We've got space for 140-150mm or so of PIR. We'll be okay here.

 

But - our staircase was built wrongly. It's solid concrete (cast in-situ), but not enough height on each step, we probably need to add ~80mm to the height of each step.

 

Any thoughts on the best way to build this up ? The staircase will be finished with hardwood treads and risers.

 

I.e. we could cast more concrete in a mesh and build it up that way, just wondering if there is a more sensible solution ?