Furnace Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 I've used an architect to design the gaff, and a planning consultant to apply for planning. If the application is successful, I'm likely to go with a MBC type of build. The next decision seems to be whether I use the architect to hold my hand to progress the project, or try to go it alone. I think an MBC type route will mean I don't need separate construction drawings and structural engineer input for the shell or foundations, but I'll need other information for building control - layout/spec details for rainwater drainage, sewage pipes (no mains sewage, so treatment unit), MVHR, electricity, plumbing, mains water and more stuff I haven't thought about. I'm sure the architect will do/arrange this for me, but at a likely hefty cost. I'm thinking I will also need to have construction details for the roofers (zinc standing seam), cladding (horizontal wood), guttering (there's a valley to contend with) and other stuff I haven't yet thought about. I think it's important to ensure that these external items (plus windows and doors) interface in the best possible mechanical, but also aesthetically pleasing way and I don't want to leave it to each trade to decide on the hoof. I'll also need I'm retired so have the time, but don't know if I can achieve the comprehensive level of detail that will mitigate as many 'on site' problems as possible. I'm a detail person by profession, and am not comfortable leaving things to chance. Although I appreciate that there will be unforeseen issues that have to be navigated, I'd like to have as few avoidable ones as possible for the sake of my wallet and sanity. My initial thinking was to have a phased approach to the project, but am aware that a holistic view is also necessary to avoid the 'if I'd only done that when I was laying the foundations' feeling when a guttering issue pops up 6 months later. Having someone involved who has experience could be very helpful in avoiding expensive mistakes. Am I being overly pessi/optimistic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 You will need a SE for your foundation design Most will do a building regs submission for you also A lot cheaper than an architect 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 27 minutes ago, Furnace said: ... Am I being overly pessi/optimistic? Optimism bias is standard for self-builders. What you really need is a network of experienced builders / building professionals around you. 29 minutes ago, Furnace said: ... I'm retired so have the time, but don't know if I can achieve the comprehensive level of detail that will mitigate as many 'on site' problems as possible. I'm a detail person by profession, and am not comfortable leaving things to chance. ... Build a team of generalists around you then ... network, network, network. Buildhub is a good start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, nod said: You will need a SE for your foundation design Most will do a building regs submission for you also A lot cheaper than an architect Gotcha. Although that may come from the frame supplier if I go for a complete package. My architect would almost certainly contract out that work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Optimism bias is standard for self-builders. And I'm a pessimist by nature.... 4 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: What you really need is a network of experienced builders / building professionals around you Send 'em my way Edited April 25, 2023 by Furnace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, Furnace said: Am I being overly pessi/optimistic? Hiya. Your proposal is technically feasible. 43 minutes ago, Furnace said: I'm a detail person by profession, and am not comfortable leaving things to chance. Although I appreciate that there will be unforeseen issues that have to be navigated, I'd like to have as few avoidable ones as possible for the sake of my wallet and sanity. A few thoughts. On the plus side.. you have an eye for detail and I assume your are familiar with things like; logic, sequencing and programming events in terms of timing. Also, you probaly have a good idea as to how you assess risk. Hate to say it but the Rumsfeld quote is applicable.. the things we know.. On a personal level I think you may need to have a certain personality. Remember that you are not always dealing with other professionals. You have to be able to work with for example great trades folk who are terrible at communicating (they will do your head in from time to time) , sales folk, the whole gambit. Can you do this and not end up doing yourself mental harm? Can you cope with that over a sustained period of time? How are your IT skills? Do you think or can you work or learn to work a cad drawing package, just simple one. Something that you can use to convey construction concepts to others? 1 hour ago, Furnace said: I'm retired so have the time, but don't know if I can achieve the comprehensive level of detail that will mitigate as many 'on site' problems as possible. You have time.. but if you have not done this before you face a very steep learing curve with the associated risks. I would go right back to the beginning and review what you know, how did the planning go?, what did you learn from that. Then look at the site you have, do your own desktop study so you understand the ground.. learn the technical terms and language used, you can find examples on the internet. The objective here is to get a handle and understand the things you know you know.. this builds your confidence. All the time you are doing this you end up reading around and gathering tacit knowledge that comes into play later. If you have a pretty good idea of how you want the Architecture to shape up then you can probably get quite a long way.. but you will make unforced errors.. that is why Architects take at least 7 years to train! If you want to get the likes of MBC and others to produce work packages then you need to know what they are omitting and what they are basing their design on. It's the gaps between the work packages and folk using different design criteria that cause big problems. One suggestion. Do the leg work, put together a document that summarises where you are. Imagine you are using this document to sell your project. Next try and find a local SE that is interested in the kinds of things you are interested in implementing. Remember SE's also do a bit of Architectural design. Or you could find an Architect who knows their way around the SE stuff.. the two professions cross fertilise. Some SE's will say.., give me 300 -400 quid a day and I'll not just give you SE advice but a whole load of other pointers about stuff they have picked up over the years and how you can design all these flashing details etc. It does not have to be an SE, could be a surveyor etc.. but all builds start in the ground and the structural concept.. particularly the horizontal stability system. Yes I know I have slanted this in favour of maybe an SE but.. 1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said: What you really need is a network of experienced builders / building professionals around you. The above is the best advise! Other than to add you need to find folk you get along with and can build a rappore and trust. 1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said: Buildhub is a good start. Here you get it all for free and can explore without losing your shirt! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 @Gus Potter Thanks so much for your thoughtful and detailed comments. I need to think about them and reply accordingly. I'll be back (said without the menacing tone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, Furnace said: I'll be back Spot on, mull things over, let us know, ask questions. But later if you make this work (all moved in and comfy) you need to come back and tell folk how you did it! That is the asking price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted June 12, 2023 Author Share Posted June 12, 2023 (edited) Update to @Gus Potter and others... Planning permission granted (with some annoying but surmountable conditions) so I now need to decide how to progress the project. Architect has quoted £18-25k for RIBA Stage 4 - Technical Design. It seems a lot to me, hence my original title of the topic. Attached is the scope of service stage4.pdf The floor area is about 225m2 and estimated build cost c.£650k I'm inclined to ask for a Building Regs submission quote, and deal with the other stuff in an ad hoc manner. Thoughts from the wise owls? M Edited June 12, 2023 by Furnace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 On 25/04/2023 at 19:37, nod said: You will need a SE for your foundation design Most will do a building regs submission for you also A lot cheaper than an architect not necessarily. Depending on your ground type building control can cover upto 2.5M depth. £25k is daylight robbery. Have them do plans and elevations to your liking then sack them off. If you have the time and inclination all the rest you can sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Dave Jones said: not necessarily. Depending on your ground type building control can cover upto 2.5M depth. £25k is daylight robbery. Have them do plans and elevations to your liking then sack them off. If you have the time and inclination all the rest you can sort. We must be lucky 500 for se the first time £850 +1000 for building regs submission 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, nod said: We must be lucky 500 for se the first time £850 +1000 for building regs submission Was that for all Building Regs docs, or just Part A? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Dave Jones said: Have them do plans and elevations to your liking They've already provided the plans and elevations that have been used in the planning app that has just been granted. I'd like someone to hold my hand throughout the project (I'm single), and am happy to pay a reasonable amount. However, the quote for Stage 4 feels rather OTT, and then I have Stage 5 (the actual build) to undertake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 11 minutes ago, Furnace said: Was that for all Building Regs docs, or just Part A? That’s for the submission The Architecht had done all the drawings and achieved full planning permission £2800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 18 minutes ago, nod said: That’s for the submission The Architecht had done all the drawings and achieved full planning permission £2800 So planning drawings plus Building Regs drawings for £2800 total? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 I found the process incredibly stressful and thought the architect was expensive and decided to PM myself. I saved money on the swings and then wasted loads through inexperience and time on the roundabouts. I wished I'd stayed with my original architect, but as people have pointed out, you don't know what you don't know. Many of us on are here overthinkers and every decision has ramifications. The right people, as in any business/work environment is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 I found the process incredibly stressful and thought the architect was expensive and decided to PM myself. I saved money on the swings and then wasted loads through inexperience and time on the roundabouts. I wished I'd stayed with my original architect, but as people have pointed out, you don't know what you don't know. Many of us on are here overthinkers and every decision has ramifications. The right people, as in any business/work environment is key. Architect's fees are often a fixed % of the build (no incentive to cost control!). Many people go over budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jilly said: I found the process incredibly stressful and thought the architect was expensive I can certainly agree with that. I don't like the information asymmetry, and much of the information is not 'difficult', but it's difficult to find out. I've done some of the planning related stuff myself rather than pay people, but the amounts involved up to this stage have been modest. When I move into the costly part of actually building, mistakes through inexperience are likely and become much more expensive. I'm unlikely to ever do this again so any experience I gain will be mostly wasted. I'm meeting with the architect this week and will have an honest conversation and see if we can come to a compromise that works for us both. The hand holding is worth quite a lot to me as a singleton, and I should have that in my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Furnace said: So planning drawings plus Building Regs drawings for £2800 total? Yes plus vat Edited June 13, 2023 by nod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Furnace said: I can certainly agree with that. I don't like the information asymmetry, and much of the information is not 'difficult', but it's difficult to find out. I've done some of the planning related stuff myself rather than pay people, but the amounts involved up to this stage have been modest. When I move into the costly part of actually building, mistakes through inexperience are likely and become much more expensive. I'm unlikely to ever do this again so any experience I gain will be mostly wasted. I'm meeting with the architect this week and will have an honest conversation and see if we can come to a compromise that works for us both. The hand holding is worth quite a lot to me as a singleton, and I should have that in my mind. The we faced as apposed to previously Pur planner no longer answer there phones Covid of course If you want to ask a question via email it’s £200 per question The Architect had a hotline Just as well as we went back and forth with planners for months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canski Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 On 25/04/2023 at 19:37, nod said: You will need a SE for your foundation design Most will do a building regs submission for you also A lot cheaper than an architect My LABC has agreed to come to site to inspect my dig. Just like the old days no SE required. The ground is rock solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 36 minutes ago, nod said: Yes plus vat That seems outstanding value. Do you think it's unusually cheap? Did you also have construction drawings made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 Not really Our previous build 5 years earlier was about 10% less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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