EDF and 3 phase meter replacing single phase

[Andehh]

We are with EDF, after previously supplier went under. We knocked down a bungalow with single phase, and are nearing the end of building a replacement bungalow, and are trying to get the single phase meter upgraded to 3 phase. 

 

DNO and builder aligned and all looking good, however I rang EDF to inform them and after an hour on hold, and 3 departments I was transferred to someone who was very happy to discuss and plan it, until they explained the gas and power meter appointment would be on Friday. I queried this and she had no idea of 3 phase vs smart meter...she disappeared for another 10 mins before she came back and said the appointments team would call me to book in the "phase 3" meter install. They have no phone number for me to call, I have to wait for them to call me. 

 

 I knew EDF are a bunch of morons at the best if time... But for 3 depts and no one to know what to do has me fed up, as yet more time invested to baby sit this bloody build. 

 

Anyone have any experiences here or with EDF? Have I been fobbed off, or is there an actual chance they will call back and book in the swap?? 

 

[Kelvin]

Who knows. I had similar grief with Octopus who sub out the meter installation. It took 7 months from initial contact to installation. The bloke that did the install travelled from Inverness to Blairgowrie to do it and normally only did 3 phase and had to meet a colleague to get a meter. Be thankful you have at least got a possible call on Friday as folk are being told they can’t get a supply at all!

Edited April 11, 2023 by Kelvin

[saveasteading]

If I may, why do you want 3 phase? 

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> had no idea of 3 phase

 

Par for the DNO course I think. Most of the employees that deal with consumers have absolutely no idea what 3-phase is. I think OVO and Octopus are actually the best ones for 3P smart meter, and they're not great. You will get more sense if you get an installation engineer to visit as opposed to a call centre person - you need that anyway. The engineer will be able to figure out (a) if there is 3P anywhere near you and (b) how much the install will cost. 

[saveasteading]

We thought we had 3 phase (amateur me looking at the wiring, and it being a redundant farm building).

But it wasn't , and it would have been expensive to bring in, and the standing charge would increase.

 

With research and the advice of ProDave and others we confirmed that our single phase was plenty, even for ASHP for 400m2.

SSE were helpful too, but I know they don't stretch to Suffolk.

With SSE agreement, we put in an oversized cable just in case things change.

 

After years of asking electricians what 3 phase was, I now realise they didn't really know. they just knew how to do the wiring.

Great for heavy machinery, but we don't have any.

[Andehh]

3 Phase as we installed a few car chargers, ASHP, Hobb, multiple A/C units and a lot of electric circuits internal & external! We blew through the single phase allowance very quickly.

 

DNO have given us a quote & are proving very user friendly (National Grid)...just EDF who continue to be a bunch of utter morons.

 

I will update as we progress!

[Alan Ambrose]

My view is that one of the big building design objectives for most of us here is, overall to be energy efficient and reduce running costs.

 

So my view is that it is probably helpful to keep our energy use to single phase anyway. That may mean finding ways to manage peaks of demand or generation.

[Nickfromwales]

9 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

My view is that one of the big building design objectives for most of us here is, overall to be energy efficient and reduce running costs.

 

So my view is that it is probably helpful to keep our energy use to single phase anyway. That may mean finding ways to manage peaks of demand or generation.

What provokes that line of thought?

With an "all-electric" 'eco dwelling' you'll likely have an induction hob, solar PV, 1 or 2x EV chargers, ASHP and maybe domestic battery storage also. Try getting that all onto a single phase and you'll soon have to start making cutbacks.

3ph is the way forward IMHO, plus it offers up rapid EV charging.

[billt]

15 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

What provokes that line of thought?

With an "all-electric" 'eco dwelling' you'll likely have an induction hob, solar PV, 1 or 2x EV chargers, ASHP and maybe domestic battery storage also. Try getting that all onto a single phase and you'll soon have to start making cutbacks.

3ph is the way forward IMHO, plus it offers up rapid EV charging.

 

Don't have an "Eco dwelling" but we do have 2 7.6kW induction hobs, 2 2.4kW ovens, a 7.2kW EV charger, a 21kW pool heat pump, 69kWhr batteries. An 8kW ASHP and a 3.5kW A2A HP to be installed all running off a 6kW(26A) inverter.

 

You would seem to think that that is impossible, but it's all to do with diversity and knowing your loads. For instance, in the last month the highest power consumption for all the cooking appliances was 4.8kW and only for 5 minutes. Induction hob rings generally consume little power (a few hundred watts) they only use 3kW when on boost which only typically lasts a couple of minutes.

 

The EV charger and heat pumps are potentially more of an issue, but they can be controlled to suit the available power supply.

 

A 100A supply is more than ample for any reasonably sized house.

[saveasteading]

On Christmas day when all the cookers might be on briefly, you surely won't have the pool heating.

I am assuming the ashp rating is output, so the input is about 2.

 

BTW I hope you have a pool cover. I think they repay themselves in a season indoors, and a few months outdoors. Cold swimming is healthier anyway.

[saveasteading]

Another thought. Is the pool heater an ashp? If not  why not?

If so, again divide by about 4 for the power input, and heat on off-peak.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, billt said:

Don't have an "Eco dwelling" but we do have 2 7.6kW induction hobs, 2 2.4kW ovens, a 7.2kW EV charger, a 21kW pool heat pump, 69kWhr batteries. An 8kW ASHP and a 3.5kW A2A HP to be installed all running off a 6kW(26A) inverter.

All micro generation A/C coupled? Or hybrid battery & inverters on D/C side? 

[Nickfromwales]

46 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Another thought. Is the pool heater an ashp? If not  why not?

If so, again divide by about 4 for the power input, and heat on off-peak.

 

1 hour ago, billt said:

a 21kW pool heat pump

 

[Alan Ambrose]

@Nickfromwales >>> What provokes that line of thought?

 

Our flat, which weirdly, is on 3-phase is not energy efficient, uses electricity for everything, and uses about 10.5 MWh a year. That's 5.3A on average. The phases are fused at 63A each, so we're using 2.7% of 'capacity' on average. I'm guessing (I don't have detailed metering) 25% of capacity at peak times.

 

Our 3-bed build should be a lot more energy efficient and use maybe 3 MWh p.a. - that is 1.5A on average i.e. 1.5% of a 100A single phase supply. And, we plan to use PV to reduce our imported electricity supply costs and also batteries to smooth the peaks out. Do we really need 3-phase?

 

 

[billt]

4 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Another thought. Is the pool heater an ashp? If not  why not?

If so, again divide by about 4 for the power input, and heat on off-peak.

 

Yes the heater is an ASHP and the pool is covered 99% of the time. The heat pump consumes 1.5-3kW and the pool pump is 500-800W. And it only runs in the summer when there is enough PV for it.

 

(We don't actually want a swimming pool, but it came with the house and we might as well keep it running.)

[billt]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

All micro generation A/C coupled? Or hybrid battery & inverters on D/C side? 

 

It's an AC coupled system based on SMA inverters, but not connected to the grid for export. That has the advantage that all the outputs add together so in theory you could have 12kW of PV added to 6kW of inverter output to give 18kW of supply briefly.

 

(I'm trying to get hold of another SI8.0 to double the inverter output and increase the maximum charge rate, but they seem to be unobtainable at the moment. Although the system works with only 6kW, a bit more capacity is desirable with the added ASHPs )

[joth]

44 minutes ago, billt said:

It's an AC coupled system based on SMA inverters, but not connected to the grid for export.

If it's not connected to the grid, how do you power the house when the sun is not shining.

 

And due apologies to the OP as this has gone so far off topic of EDF incompetence it's untrue.

As a single suggestion to OP: I'd EDF are still messing about just get them to swap the current meter to a single phase of the new 3ph head as a stop gap until they work out how to supply and install you a 3ph meter. Good luck 

[Dave Jones]

western power will only install 3 phase on new builds. You can opt for a single phase meter if your not going to be using the capacity.

 

I had same problems with EDF, key is to raise a formal complaint at the first opportunity. You do get callbacks then as its monitored/'tracked.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

western power will only install 3 phase on new builds.

I've had second and third ( 3ph ) from them on previous HMO conversions of 3 and 4 storey buildings over 100 years old. They'll give you pretty much whatever you need, as long as they have capacity.

And if you can pay for the service alteration, of course.

[Nickfromwales]

16 hours ago, billt said:

 

It's an AC coupled system based on SMA inverters, but not connected to the grid for export. That has the advantage that all the outputs add together so in theory you could have 12kW of PV added to 6kW of inverter output to give 18kW of supply briefly.

 

(I'm trying to get hold of another SI8.0 to double the inverter output and increase the maximum charge rate, but they seem to be unobtainable at the moment. Although the system works with only 6kW, a bit more capacity is desirable with the added ASHPs )

What AC coupled kWp did you declare in your DNO application? Were you told to limit the export to (x) kW?

[billt]

It's off grid.

[Andehh]

Thanks all!

 

Painful to say the least.

 

EDF gave me the run around for a week, so i raised a complaint (thank you Dave, took one look at your post & went straight to EDF.....). The complaint has kicked my original request up a gear, but they have still have to give their engineers 10-14 days to respond with equipment & timing to swap the meter - worrying what they may come back with, seeing as EDF have shown to be hopeless so far.

 

National Grid have us booked in for June 15th to do the actual digging & connection, due to shortage of teams its longer then normal. I am really hoping they get a cancellation (they are trying for me) and can fit us in that way, but dont hold much hope. Ill keep chasing them on it.

 

Really worrying as we are due to move in late May, and I had hoped to have electrics tested by then.

 

We do have a single phase connection, but I don't know if this can be connected up the the house until the three phase comes a few weeks later!? (3 phase because we installed 3 x vehicle chargers - these wont be connected for many many years in reality)