New build in the Highlands, hello!

[mrmike]

Just a quick post to say hello as we're starting out on our self build (hopefully) this year. I say starting out, because the last year and a bit has been doing the prep work. We've been gifted some land on the family croft and now have full planning permission in place after what seemed like a never-ending process and some very strange requests from the planning body.

 

We went with a design from Heb Homes as its a modern take on the sort of crofting properties which were common back in the day. We've made a couple of modifications so that's all finalised.

 

Next step is funding, so found this form when searching for info on structural warranties - next steps are to work on the final build costs with our quantity surveyor and then apply for funding I guess. We have a house we could sell to cover the costs but its going to be so much easier if we can stay where we are until its finished, then sell up.

 

Biggest surprise so far (as I expected planning to be long and torturous) has been the difference in cost between estimates for full turnkey services and then the actual, proper build costs from them.

 

We have access to some machinery so hope to be able to do some bits ourselves to save money and I'm looking forward to that to be honest.

I'll have a look on the forum and start a thread with the build "diary" once we get going as I"m guessing that might be useful for others.

 

Mike.

[Iceverge]

Well done on getting planning and welcome. 

 

 

Pics and plans always welcome!

 

I think @Kelvin is a fellow heb homes builder and there may be a few more about too. 

 

 

[Jenki]

@mrmike, welcome, there are a few Highlands self builders on here, some already built, some building. 

Where abouts are you? I'm near the North Coast just South of Wick.

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome.  Another Highlander here just north of Inverness.  You are in good company.

 

Dare I say if for getting a reputation, but how about selling the house and moving into a static caravan on the croft?  WAY better if you can avoid borrowing and the hoops that makes you jump through.

[Jenki]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Hi and welcome.  Another 

Dare I say if for getting a reputation, but how about selling the house and moving into a static caravan on the croft? 

It's great to live on site, wish we'd spent a little more on the caravan quality, but it's giving me a push to get building.

[saveasteading]

East of Inverness us. 

Currently tiling.

Heating went on last week.

 

Looking forward to hearing your progress and helping if poss.

 

Btw, the caravan will be redundant shortly.

[Kelvin]

Hello. Yes we are building a HH in Perthshire near Blairgowrie. Kit arrives in 4 weeks.
 

I would be happy to share our experience with you as it’s not been the best experience with them. In fact it’s been rather poor and I’ll be glad to see the back of them frankly.
 

The difference in cost from estimate to actual is also typical after speaking with other HH clients. We are only doing supply and erect with them though. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Kelvin

[mrmike]

1 hour ago, Jenki said:

@mrmike, welcome, there are a few Highlands self builders on here, some already built, some building. 

Where abouts are you? I'm near the North Coast just South of Wick.

We are at Helmsdale. I great up in the Highlands and lived in both Wick and Thurso so know Caithness and Sutherland well!

[mrmike]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Hi and welcome.  Another Highlander here just north of Inverness.  You are in good company.

 

Dare I say if for getting a reputation, but how about selling the house and moving into a static caravan on the croft?  WAY better if you can avoid borrowing and the hoops that makes you jump through.

That's something we were talking about today actually, need to look at all the options!

[mrmike]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

Hello. Yes we are building a HH in Perthshire near Blairgowrie. Kit arrives in 4 weeks.
 

I would be happy to share our experience with you as it’s not been the best experience with them. In fact it’s been rather poor and I’ll be glad to see the back of them frankly.
 

The difference in cost from estimate to actual is also typical after speaking with other HH clients. We are only doing supply and erect with them though. 

I liked your post, thanks for replying, but am sorry to hear of the troubles.

 

Our initial online quote which set this whole thing in motion has doubled which was a real kick in the teeth. Would be interested to hear some of your hassles with them by PM if you have time.

 

Exciting stuff though to be getting your kit in 4 weeks!

 

Our initial full turnkey estimate has pretty much doubled by the time we got to a detailed cost from the QS which was a real kick in the teeth tbh. I think we're now just going to do supply and erect with them and use local trades for the rest. That's brought up the subject of needing a structural warranty in order to get funding, which I believe is easier to get with a single contractor doing it.

[Jenki]

15 minutes ago, mrmike said:

We are at Helmsdale. I great up in the Highlands and lived in both Wick and Thurso so know Caithness and Sutherland well!

Just 20 miles south from us then.👍

 

[ProDave]

13 minutes ago, mrmike said:

That's something we were talking about today actually, need to look at all the options!

Normally you would apply for temporary planning for a static 'van with your planning, but I believe crofting law allows 3 caravans on the croft so I doubt you need to bother.

 

GNR Sutherland at Edderton is the local caravan dealer and they always have a selection from posh to basket case.  Next time you are passing up / down the A9 turn off at the Dornoch Bridge roundabout for the short detour to take a look.

[Kelvin]

44 minutes ago, mrmike said:

I liked your post, thanks for replying, but am sorry to hear of the troubles.

 

Our initial online quote which set this whole thing in motion has doubled which was a real kick in the teeth. Would be interested to hear some of your hassles with them by PM if you have time.

 

Exciting stuff though to be getting your kit in 4 weeks!

 

Our initial full turnkey estimate has pretty much doubled by the time we got to a detailed cost from the QS which was a real kick in the teeth tbh. I think we're now just going to do supply and erect with them and use local trades for the rest. That's brought up the subject of needing a structural warranty in order to get funding, which I believe is easier to get with a single contractor doing it.

Sounds typical of them I’m afraid. 
 

I’ve PMd you my number. 

[saveasteading]

52 minutes ago, mrmike said:

detailed cost from the QS which was a real kick in the teeth

It is pretty impossible to provide a realistic cost. Our joiner got a qs to cost his work, and I thought it was high. I analysed it and found 10% added to all quantities. Then extras which the joiner agreed he didn't need, and some doubling up.

So the agreed price was 30% less and I think the joiner did OK.

But that 30% could have been needed in different circumstances.

Also as I have explained elsewhere, there are multiple oncosts when using a main contractor and project managers.

 

It depends an awful lot on your own ability to manage and question, as well as DIY.

[saveasteading]

48 minutes ago, ProDave said:

apply for temporary planning for a static 'van 

I think it is now permitted development to have a caravan throughout the works.

 

Ours came from GNR  Sutherland too.  

If you have good access (we didn't), the ex holiday park 'caravans' can be good value, esp if you don't mind the first job being to do it up, as they have been very well used. But watch the £1,000 transport each way.  And perhaps more difficult to resell.

Edited March 19, 2023 by saveasteading

[saveasteading]

57 minutes ago, Jenki said:

Helmsdale

Looked it up online. So much history, not all nice. 

Vikings, fossils, salmon, golf, gold, clearances.

[Jenki]

6 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Looked it up online. So much history, not all nice. 

Vikings, fossils, salmon, golf, gold, clearances.

You missed Herring, a big industry resulting from the clearance's. Where we are used to have a Harbour for landing Herring, as do many of the coastal villages along this East coast. 

[ProDave]

We found Sutherlands would transport a static they sold for free, but the distance was less.  Completely different matter if you want to buy one privately and just want them to transport it.  On our first build when we came to sell the static at the end of the build, the buyer ended up getting someone almost from Aberdeen to transport it as the local people just were not interested.

 

This time I arranged the planning so it does not ever have to leave our site, it remains with PP as a garden outbuilding (not for habitational use)  You would not get such a large garden shed for the money.

[Kelvin]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

It is pretty impossible to provide a realistic cost. Our joiner got a qs to cost his work, and I thought it was high. I analysed it and found 10% added to all quantities. Then extras which the joiner agreed he didn't need, and some doubling up.

So the agreed price was 30% less and I think the joiner did OK.

But that 30% could have been needed in different circumstances.

Also as I have explained elsewhere, there are multiple oncosts when using a main contractor and project managers.

 

It depends an awful lot on your own ability to manage and question, as well as DIY.

Sure but to be double the original estimate. HH build enough houses of similar designs so their estimates ought to be more accurate than they appear to be. I’ve spoken to a few people now that have been caught out by them. 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Kelvin said:

double the original estimate. HH

You are right of course. This is what they do and they know their costs. They also appear to know that they can put up their prices and still get the work.

 

I was meaning pricing a project generally, esp not knowing who will build it.

If all contractors quoted the same price then we wouldn't need to get more than one quote.

 

The industry seems to think that large scale housing projects will slow down dramatically in May/ June as housing developers complete projects but don't start much new. Whether that capacity  will feed through quickly to reduced cost nobody knows.

 

[Kelvin]

9 hours ago, saveasteading said:

You are right of course. This is what they do and they know their costs. They also appear to know that they can put up their prices and still get the work.

 

 

 

The way HH operate catches people out I think. It’s not that they’ve necessarily put prices up and folk still buy their kits. This is how they operate: 

 

1. They have published prices on their website. You can select various options including partial turnkey and turnkey, add kitchens and bathrooms. This gives you an indicated price. Clearly a lot can affect this price but on its face it should be in the ballpark to build a house to a reasonable standard. However I very much doubt you could get anywhere near these prices in reality. They also talk about price transparency on their website. It’s anything but. The current prices they publish are from 2021 and they have a health warning saying they are due to go up soon so add inflation to this. However this is a recent update as last year the prices were quite a bit lower. 
 

2. So you’ve had a look at their prices and you think they are in the right range of affordability. You phone them up and organise a meeting. That eventually turns into a contract. You pick a design, make any desired changes and submit the planning application. They can’t give you an estimated cost at this point so you still only have the website cost to go on. 
 

3. You eventually get an estimate from them roughly at the same time you achieve planning. The estimate doesn’t include the steelwork so the final cost will be higher. The estimate is also much higher than the website price. But you now have planning approval so what do you do. You’ve already burnt a load of money to get to this point, you have approval for their house design so if you pull out where does that leave you so you decide to carry on to the warrant stage. HH will encourage you to engage a QS and they have a guy affiliated to them. Last year I gave an indication of his extortionate fees so consequently I’ve done it myself and fairly accurately too. The QS works up an order of cost so you now have what you think is a reasonable final cost plus or minus a bit. 
 

4. You burn through more money getting through the warrant process. You still don’t have the final price but you’re pretty much committed at this point and you have the QS numbers so have an idea. The warrant is approved and eventually you get the final price and it’s nothing like their website price, nothing like their estimate, and nothing like the QS order of cost. How can that possibly be? They build these houses all the time, they are standard designs, simple squares or rectangles so no complexity, the QS is their affiliated guy so knows their houses and what it takes to build them and knows what previous builds cost. The builder they are using for the  turnkey builds is their long term affiliated builder so they know what he charges. Given all  that how can the final price be so wildly inaccurate?  
 

I have spoken to two other people and this is roughly the process they went through and it caught them both out to great personal and financial cost. There are others too. 
 

I think there are two possible explanations. One, this is their cynical business model. They know if they were actually as transparent with their pricing as they say they are a lot of people wouldn’t go with them. Therefore they operate the way they do knowing that people will find the extra money from somewhere. Two, their website prices used to be accurate and a fair reflection of actual prices pre-COVID and inflation. But they’ve been caught out by the rapid increase in costs so none of their pricing models work anymore. 
 

I am only doing supply and erect and my final

kit price was within a few thousand of what I anticipated. But I can see how many other people could and have been caught out. There’s even a closed Facebook group for clients of HH who have had issues with them…