New member in an old large and expensive to heat house..

[BarumMike]

Hi, just joined.  We are struggling to get the energy bills down without spending a fortune to save a fortune!  Hoping to find some answers here.  Ours is a 200 year old listed end of terrace house in N Devon, with many large sash windows and lots of other ways to leak heat.  But we like it.  

[Jilly]

Also take a look at the period house forum and the Haynes manual

[Sparrowhawk]

Welcome Mike, you're not the only one here with an expensive to heat/cold house!

 

I've had great help from the folk here and you could do worse than to peruse their replies in my thread

Have you chimneys in the property as well as sash windows?

[limecc]

Hi and welcome. New myself.

 

After following above energy saving advice and insulating best you can. Install a multi-fuel stove.

 

If you have a brick built chimney then great, otherwise it's straightforward to use twin wall flue and by using calcium silicate board (aka Skamotec) you can create a hearth and chimney absolutely anywhere.

https://www.stovefitterswarehouse.co.uk/pages/installing-a-twin-wall-flue-chimney

 

If you know anyone reasonably competent at DIY I personally recommend to self-install, don't be daunted. Much help available here and from the above website.

 

We are the warmest we've ever been with the cheapest bills. Fortunate to be on a price capped tariff until October and we have 6kw of solar and have been burning free wood so no longer using any gas except for hot water.

 

Some days I want minimum hassle so I light smokeless fuel which is an incredible source of heat in an eco-design stove. Up to 12 hours between refills is possible, 6 hours is easy, it depends how big a fire and how strongly you want it to burn as well as the fuel quality. A 20kg bag (£14-18) lasts up to two days, the fire stays in overnight. If I was on government capped tariffs that would be saving me hugely, but you can't get cheaper than free, so I usually burn wood.

 

P.S. Install Hugo or Loop on your phone if you have Smart Meters fitted:

 

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, limecc said:

Install a multi-fuel stove.

How does that solve the problem of a poorly insulated house with high air leakage?

 

Insulation and airthghness does not need to cost a fortune, though it often takes time and can be messy.

[limecc]

20 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

How does that solve the problem of a poorly insulated house with high air leakage?

I never said that. I recommended first to be as energy efficient as possible then an energy efficient stove will take care if expensive heating bills.

 

Incidentally I was thinking about efficiencies of combustion. (Forget about nuclear and renewables for the moment which have hidden, deferred and hard to quantify costs in terms of money, subsidies, and damage to the environment and can't always be used.)

 

In terms of burning stuff then here's my understanding:

Open fire 23%

Petrol engine 35%

Coal-fired power station 38%

Diesel engine 40%

CCGT gas power station 45%

Non-condensing gas boiler 70%

Old wood burning stove 72%

Eco-design stove 84%

Modern condensing gas boiler 90%

 

So using a stove to heat the house seems to be the lesser of many evils. My conscience is clear. If the figures above are flawed then I'm happy to be corrected.

 

Best of all, a real fire is the heart of a home. A comfort during stress and illness and a source of cheer at other times.

[Iceverge]

Coal is certainly cheap at about £600/tonne. At 8kWh/kg and say a very optimum efficiency of 65% (manufacturers figures are pie in the sky) gives a unit price of about 11.5p/kWh.

 

Assuming a burn time of 4 hours and an output of 10kW and 30 minutes work per day at £10/hr that works out at 12.5p/kWh in wages. Total 23p/kWh in a total cost. 

 

 

Now take the case for gas, I assume the building already has a boiler but the cost of a good flue and stove is probably comparable anyway. 

Even at 15p/kWh ( uncapped) and 80% efficiency for a gas boiler that is 18.75p/kWh per unit of heat delivered as labour is zero. 

 

Similar story with oil at 87p/litre/11kWh or about 10p/kWh heat delivered. 

 

Now look at the case for an air to air heat pump running at a COP of 4. Cost would be less than the stove to install. Again with electricity at 50p (uncapped) the cost would only be 12.5p/kWh. 

 

 

In short , much like burning timber, the only economic case for having a stove is if you value your time as nothing. 

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

manufacturers figures are pie in the sky

Too right.

Why knowing what the heat load of the building, at the start of a project, is so important.

 

Sometimes I think they need to put a digital display on a roll of mineral wool insulation.  Make it a bit more 21^st Century.

[Adrian Walker]

7 hours ago, BarumMike said:

Hi, just joined.  We are struggling to get the energy bills down without spending a fortune to save a fortune!  Hoping to find some answers here.  Ours is a 200 year old listed end of terrace house in N Devon, with many large sash windows and lots of other ways to leak heat.  But we like it.  

Listed or not, it 2023 and you need insulation.  Borrow a thermal camera and have a walk around and see where the major losses are.

[Susie]

Hi and Welcome

I also live in a listed building in North Cornwall over 150 years old.

Being listed is both lovely and difficult I get you completely. 

We are not allowed solar on the roof, no ASHP allowed, and have to keep the windows wooden.....

I started with the basics which you have probably already done. All lightbulbs low energy, draft excluder around doors, old fashioned sausage dog type at main doors, rugs and blankets, heavy curtains etc

Are you on LPG?  I find filling the tank up in August is often cheaper and don't forget you can shop around your not tied to one supplier, unless you have just got a new tank, after the minimum your still free to move.  Calor installed a new large underground tank £250 ish we dug the hole and filled back in.  We left them after the minimum term and found cheaper supplier who took over the tank.

Are you on Economy 7?  Make the most of the cheaper hours.

Once you have the basics sorted move onto slightly bigger things like insulating pipework, Hot water cylinders extra insulation.

Finally save up and get permission if necessary for the other things.  We need new windows but at over £1000 per small window supply only its too expensive for now.  

If you already have ideas you will find lots of help on the forum.

 

 

[Susie]

Just realised if you are thinking of replacing window frames then because your in Devon you are allowed UPC that look old in Sash style. 
Planning rules around England should be the same for everyone, but there not when your listed. Cornwall have refused repeatedly UPC windows in listed properties. Our isn’t listed by its appearance just who once lived here, may be whilst passing through and maybe met his wife here.  So no UPVC for us. 
 

[limecc]

46 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

that works out at 12.5p/kWh in wages. 

 

In short , much like burning timber, the only economic case for having a stove is if you value your time as nothing. 

 

@IcevergeKeep wages out of the calculations. How long do you have to work before you can afford a heat source installation vs self-install of a £500 stove? Will it supply all the house needs (if one can be installed) and how's the noise with the window open at night?

 

Lighting and maintaining a fire is not a chore. It's a pleasure, I find it quite relaxing.

 

Wood heating is not for everyone. Also applies stoves full stop haha. Takes space to store and season logs. Better to buy it in or better still use solid fuel which has the highest energy density.

 

I've got a real world cost analysis between old back boiler, new Worcester Bosch and DG Ivar 5 stove. It took a few weeks to balance my system, fit smart trv's and get the optimum flow temp.

 

With no change in usage or insulation heating our 1970's 3 bed bungalow cost £147 Dec 2021 at 3.45p/kWh. Compare Hugo and Loop screenshots as Loop uses the latest tariff. 3680kWh would now cost £385.

 

Our new boiler uses about 30% less or £100 for gas/month (Dec 2022 same tariff). Our log burner was commissioned Dec 19 so the actual bill was £84. January gas usage was just 1038kWh or £27 inc vat.

 

Sawing wood is quite therapeutic, I don't mind. I could always be wasting my time in front of trash TV.

 

Would be appreciated if critics could share their own personal circumstances and experiences.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

5 hours ago, limecc said:

P.S. Install Hugo or Loop on your phone if you have Smart Meters fitted:

 

Welcome @limecc. I'm curious about these two, do you find they provide something over the supplier's own app?

 

3 hours ago, limecc said:

Best of all, a real fire is the heart of a home. A comfort during stress and illness and a source of cheer at other times.

I completely agree. I've been next to one this morning at an outdoor centre and it was bliss.

 

It is a shame that none of the alternatives can capture the level of radiative heating and brightness.

[Iceverge]

35 minutes ago, limecc said:

Keep wages out of the calculations

 

Sure thing.

 

In December 22 your unit price for gas was 10.5p/kWh, up from 4p/kWh in 2021.  How much are you paying for coal delivered? Do you know the calorific value of the coal you use?

 

Do you have any register of the heating degree days in December 21 and December 22 ( you can find it easily here Heating & Cooling Degree Days – Free Worldwide Data Calculation). There's a fall off in gas usage from about the 20th of December 22, maybe due to warm weather or more use of the stove or less people in the house. 

 

Do you know how much coal you've used over the same periods? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[limecc]

37 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

 

Welcome @limecc. I'm curious about these two, do you find they provide something over the supplier's own app?

I have the Eon app and it's rubbish. Hugo and Loop are extensions of your Smart Meter display (IHD) which store over a year of data. Hugo is the more mature app, you can have a custom tariff and it's clever how you can have dual fuel on the same chart. A recent update added standing charge and vat, it completely mirrors what I am billed, as you would expect.

[limecc]

38 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

Sure thing.

 

In December 22 your unit price for gas was 10.5p/kWh, up from 4p/kWh in 2021.  How much are you paying for coal delivered? Do you know the calorific value of the coal you use?

 

Do you have any register of the heating degree days in December 21 and December 22 ( you can find it easily here Heating & Cooling Degree Days – Free Worldwide Data Calculation). There's a fall off in gas usage from about the 20th of December 22, maybe due to warm weather or more use of the stove or less people in the house. 

 

Do you know how much coal you've used over the same periods? 

No the higher price there is calculated in the Loop app which uses the gov capped rate and figures probably exclude standing charge and vat. I currently pay 3.45p/kWH until October 2023. The Hugo calculation is true to life.

 

Newburn smokeless coal, I don't know the calorific value or how much I used so far, also I sold some to a friend so he could get the volume price. Occasional usage is as described in an earlier post, never used it longer than a weekend. It's a mid price fuel which cost me £311 delivered for 500kg, I won't need any more until summer. I was given some anthracite beans and wasn't impressed, tried a bag of Brazier which was much the same. Also experimenting burning wood on a hot bed of coal as recommended by a chimney sweep friend.

 

Manufactured ovoids seem to have added coke in varying degrees which makes them burn very hot. Expensive fuels probably have more anthracite, coke is cheap and in pure form can melt your grate. I intend to try Ecoal which is renewable made of powdered nut husks and molasses. Seems to have good reviews. It's all a bit nebulous whether it's worth spending extra on fuel, a bit like super unleaded?

 

20th Dec was when I started using the log burner, initially it was a mix of central heating and stove until I realised by leaving doors open heat goes to every room in the house.

 

Although free, I'm disappointed with the burn rate of softwood. Locally there's a supplier of railway sleeper offcuts for £55/ bulk bag (it's untreated African hardwood) and it burns amazingly. Not sure how much of that I've used as I've actually built up a large store down the side of the house from nothing.

[Iceverge]

After a little searching I found some research on this very subject. 

 

Smokeless coal comes in at 28000MJ/kg or 7.78kWh. At your price of £622/tonne that boils down to 62.2p/7.78kWh or 7.99p/kWh of raw coal. 

 

The study measured the stove running at 82.3% efficiency. 7.99p was buying you 82.3% of a kWh delivered into your house or 9.7p/kWh of delivered heat. 

 

As the tested stove seems to get it's published figure it seems fair to do the same for gas and oil. 

 

A Grant vortex Oil boiler at 92.2% efficiency gives a delivered heat unit cost of 8.6p/kWh. 

 

A Worcester Bosch boiler claims 94% efficiency. At your 3.45p/kWh gas price that's a very cheap 3.67p/kWh of delivered gas heat. 

 

A Panasonic Heatcharge has a SCOP of 5.9. at the price cap of 31.8p/kWh that ends up at 5.4p/kWh of delivered heat. 

 

TLDR. 

 

Price of delivered heat.

 

Coal 9.7p/kWh

Oil 8.6p/kWh

Electric A2A 5.4p/kWh

Gas 3.7p/kWh.

 

I'll link to that report. V interesting regarding wood too. burning-wood-consult-bsria-report1.pdf

 

[SteamyTea]

17 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

I'll link to that report. V interesting regarding wood too.

Good, professional report that.

Don't burn wet wood in an open fire.

[limecc]

Thanks for that icev. Gas only cheaper than solid fuel because by fluke I decided to lock in on a tariff. Tables would be turned otherwise. Kiln dried wood twice as dear in the report compared to smokeless coal.

 

As stated I'm usually burning free dry wood but just love the whole experience. Wanted a fire for years, dad used to have one at the family home. Went on a sea kayak experience a few years ago and the instructor lit a tiny fire in a cave. We were cold, it was wonderful! (he left no trace) Is enjoyment of fire because of the cave man in us, quite literally in the above example?

 

Our main living room works out much hotter than when using gas central heating. In fact it causes arguments, I enjoy the heat where she's burning up and opening windows. Solid fuel is much more versatile than wood and to my eye more pleasing to view. Difficult to know how hardwood compares at the price I'm paying when it's sold by the bulk bag not by weight. Time will tell, I'm still learning.

 

Are you sure a Panasonic heat pump can provide enough heat in sub zero winters? Who cares what the efficiency is if you're left in the cold and still dependent on the Grid? Poor experiences on YouTube from what I've seen. Might work if the house were a new build designed for one but simply not realistic for most of the population for one reason or another. Who has spare cash? Go solar first!

 

Long ago I checked out this video but attached comments are especially useful.

 

Did you buy one @Iceverge ? Please tell.

 

P.S. are heat pump systems subsidized? You have to rip out your traditional boiler to qualify? I could actually go for it now I have a log burner. Wonder how much the defrost cycles cost? Could it simply ice up and stop working? Noisy things!

Edited February 26, 2023 by limecc

[limecc]

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by limecc

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, limecc said:

Went on a sea kayak experience a few years ago and the instructor lit a tiny fire in a cave.

He had not read this then;

https://metro.co.uk/2008/08/15/teen-breaks-legs-in-cave-rave-collapse-383734/

[BarumMike]

What a fantastic response to a Newbie self introduction.  Thanks everyone.

Picking up the theme of AIM (Airtightness, Iinsulation and Mtechnical ventilation) mentioned in the thread from December that Sparrowhawk pointed to, I have posted a question about gas appliances and airtightness on the heat insulation section of the insulation and ventilation forum.