everdecreasingcircle Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 House bought 2015 septic tank to drainage field. 2017 septic tank burst. Advised to install sewage treatment plant discharge to river. Advised no permit necessary due to size. passed by building control. Selling house asked if we meet the general binding rules. Must not be less than 30m from a mains sewer we are less we are very close at the top of the drive but the house is set about 9m down and 35m along. We were advised we didnt need a permit. Do we? will we get one? how much to install a pumping station? Can i sell my house? Environment Agency no help at all. Different answers from every one i ask. Going round literally in ever decreasing circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Surely even if no permit is needed (it is in Scotland, you won't say where you are) you would have required building regs approval for a new treatment plant? Have you asked the EA (or SEPA in Scotland)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooksey Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Ultimately it is down to building control, if they have signed off the installation then you are fine. Any lender or house insurance provider will simply want to know if any notifiable work, has been carried out correctly and signed off by building control. If you are selling, re-insuring or re-mortgaging, just pass on the building control sign off certificate. Some jobs I have worked on, the customer opted for a sewage plant when they were closer than 30m to a mains sewer, but for whatever reasons, the costs involved to connect would have been four times the price of the sewage plant installation, they have involved building control and been signed off without issue. There is a case for everything these days, installing a pumping station for raw sewage is a bit of a feat and can leave lots of problems if the pump fails. Ultimately all you do by connecting to the mains foul sewer is send your raw sewage to a massive sewage plant further down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everdecreasingcircle Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Thank you, yes it has been signed off by building control. Confusion is that in jan2015 advice changed that you must seek the advice of Environment agency before consulting building regs. i think we also we went from drainage field to river discharge and that is classed as a new discharge. I rang 6 different companies/agencies yesterday and got told 4 different things. We are mid house sale and they asked do we meet the GBR and when i looked saw the 30m one which worried me. Had just beleived our installer before that. 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 3 hours ago, crooksey said: Ultimately it is down to building control, if they have signed off the installation then you are fine. Any lender or house insurance provider will simply want to know if any notifiable work, has been carried out correctly and signed off by building control. If you are selling, re-insuring or re-mortgaging, just pass on the building control sign off certificate. +1 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drellingore Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 The Environment Agency measure the distance to the nearest foul sewer from the boundary of the plot, not where the house is. This means that you cannot meet the General Binding Rules: Quote You cannot meet the general binding rules if there’s a public foul sewer within 30 metres of any boundary of the premises that your system serves. The Environment Agency say in Form B6.5 (application for a permit), after point 5e2, that: Quote We will only agree to the use of private treatment systems within sewered areas if you can demonstrate that: • the additional cost of connecting to the foul sewer would be unreasonable • connection is not practically feasible, or • the proposed private treatment system can be shown to significantly benefit the environment Therefore I believe your system to be in need of an Environment Agency permit, but unlikely to have received one. The installer does not seem to have been familiar with the EA's rules, only with more lenient building control types. Whilst building control might be happy with it, there is a risk for future owners that the Environment Agency find out and take action (not sure what?) against them for having an unauthorised discharge, which I think is a breach of the law. Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news. Maybe just give them the fact that it was approved by building control, and hope no-one asks if it has an EA permit? I know that when you intentionally breach a covenant in the title of a property, you can get insurance against anyone ever pulling you up on it. Perhaps the purchasers can find similar insurance about the EA taking action against what sounds like an unauthorised discharge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drellingore Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 ...If the buyers really object, perhaps you could apply for a permit (I think £125, takes about 6 weeks) and lean on arguments 1 and 2 - that because you're so far downhill from the sewer, it would have been impractical and unreasonable expensive to connect to the sewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everdecreasingcircle Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Thank you for your replies. Yes we are abou 8 metres down from the road and length of 35 m manhole to main sewer manhole so to speak. i have probably been naive but have just told the buyers and solicitors everything and asked them to try and move it forward. Permits currently taking 6 to 9 months. The discharge is in a shallow area of river with 2 x public footpaths each side so if the new owners didnt look after the system it would soon be apparent. we just want to make sure it is all okay and no risk of anything coming back to us. Its very hard to navigate, i asked the EA and was told its upto you to decide if you meet the rules not they werent that bothered as long as it was working properly. Asked them to put something in writing and they reffered me back to the General binding rules. Think they would be bothered though if something went wrong. Muddled by our neighbours who share the system being a on semi and us being detatched our roof comes up to there basement. they really should of connected to the mains when we upgraded the system as it is very easy for them, as the house they are attached to is on the mains. Really dont know how to sort this muddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooksey Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 57 minutes ago, everdecreasingcircle said: Thank you, yes it has been signed off by building control. Confusion is that in jan2015 advice changed that you must seek the advice of Environment agency before consulting building regs. i think we also we went from drainage field to river discharge and that is classed as a new discharge. I rang 6 different companies/agencies yesterday and got told 4 different things. We are mid house sale and they asked do we meet the GBR and when i looked saw the 30m one which worried me. Had just beleived our installer before that. 🙄 I could be wrong, but this is what building control are meant to check for. They are meant to know the rules and regulations, and hence why they stipulate certain things. You pay them to check all of this, if they have missed something, they should cover you. If building control has missed it but still passed it, I am sure that there will not be an issue. Depends what your buyers solicitor advises them at the end of the day, I have worked on houses/plots where the buyers solicitor has flat out suggested not to proceed with the sale, due to un tested cesspool/pit etc. Both times the buyers ignored their advice and everything was fine. Off mains drainage scares a lot of people who have never directly dealt with it. I wouldn't worry yourself (at this stage). Simply reply to your solicitor stating, all work was carried out and notified to building control, please find attach a certificate for the completed works, please also find proof of the last de-sludge and any comments received from the people emptying. All your buyers solicitor will be looking for is a clean bill of health for the system. If it hasn't had a de-sludge recently, I would offer to get one done and get a health check done on the plant, this should keep everyone happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everdecreasingcircle Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Thank you all for your replies. We have been told that if your old septic tank system 1974 had an overflow pipe to the river and your sewage treatment system is to surface water as long as it is with in 10m of the overflow it counts as an existing discharge. Has anyone heard of this i cant see anything in the GBR. Our old system had a collapsed culvert running from the soakaway to the river which would solve our issue if true as it would make our discharge existing not new. Ever hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Even an existing long standing discharge from a septic tank to a watercourse no longer meets the GBR and should have been upgraded to a treatment plant at least 2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everdecreasingcircle Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 Yes it was updated in 2017 to a sewage treatment plant. we are selling our house and need to know if our discharge from soakaway to surface water is classed as new or existing and if the fact that there was once historically and over flow pipe affects this. thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Assuming this isnt in scotland i think your are over thinking it. My understanding of the 30m rule is a new installation. Yours isnt "new". Its repacement of existing failed system. As you have found out, the EA say you decide if it complies. They will only come after you in the event of some massive drama/issue. My take would be you have complied with the GBR. If you are not happy to state that, get insurance against any subsequent costs coming back to the purchasers. It will be a couple of hundred quid at most. Problem dealt with, get house sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everdecreasingcircle Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 Hi Roger Thank you for replying this is what we beleived too but i think the GBR say if you go from a soakaway to surfave water this is classed as a new discharge and the 30m rule applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughF Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 If it's signed off, it's signed off. Let the solicitors find any issue (they won't, they're conveyancers, therefore basically incompetent)... You did everything reasonable wrt compliance, I'd just get on and get it sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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