Replacement of domestic steel gas pipe between gas meter and kitchen

[DaveAF]

Hello.

Our gas boiler insurer no longer covers our terraced home heating system because the gas pipe running from our meter to the kitchen is steel. 

It runs under our wooden ground floor and its length is about 15 feet with another couple of feet for the angled bits around the meter. 

Would having this steel pipework replaced with copper be very expensive? Our house is a 1930s terraced build.

 

Please see the pictures.

The last picture shows the gas pioework where it enters the kitchen and splits to the gas hob and the boiler. 

 

We have an option not to replace the pipe and get insurance with another insurer who dosent exclude steel pipework.

The difference between the 2 insurers policies is £170 and £565.

 

Any thoughts are very welcome. 

Thanks

David

Edited January 31, 2023 by DaveAF
Missing information

[Conor]

What does the insurance cover and do you need it?

[Marvin]

Hi @DaveAF  Is that a steel pipe coming into the building from the mains in the road? There happy for that to stay??

[DaveAF]

3 hours ago, Conor said:

What does the insurance cover and do you need it?

Its boiler breakdown and controls repair cover. The boiler is 15 years old. 

[DaveAF]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

Hi @DaveAF  Is that a steel pipe coming into the building from the mains in the road? There happy for that to stay??

The steel pipe from outside a property in to the meter is the property of whoever owns the national gas pipe network. Apparently. 

[Marvin]

Hi @DaveAF

 

Yes, your right about the mains pipe ownership, however what I was wondering was, if the insurance company is worried about your steel pipe being an insurance risk, do they not consider the steel main pipe the same risk?

 

It all seems strange to me. 

 

 

 

 

[DaveAF]

37 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Hi @DaveAF

 

Yes, your right about the mains pipe ownership, however what I was wondering was, if the insurance company is worried about your steel pipe being an insurance risk, do they not consider the steel main pipe the same risk?

 

It all seems strange to me. 

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Marvin said:

Hi @DaveAF  Is that a steel pipe coming into the building from the mains in the road? There happy for that to stay??

 

37 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Hi @DaveAF

 

Yes, your right about the mains pipe ownership, however what I was wondering was, if the insurance company is worried about your steel pipe being an insurance risk, do they not consider the steel main pipe the same risk?

 

It all seems strange to me. 

 

 

 

 

Yes its a bit strange.

But I guess that the other side of the meter is someone elses problem as far as the insurer sees things. 

[dpmiller]

so this isn't really insurance, it's boiler breakdown cover and they want to make some money out of you?

[JohnMo]

We just found a local plumber, use him to service and what ever else I need a plumber to do. Same plumber is used by a a house down the road. They had a burst pipe when it was -9 before Christmas, no insurance plumber was there in 20 mins at 9pm.  Try getting that service from a call centre, that use a plumbers based miles away from you.

 

You may find you are paying insurance and when the boiler fails, they say at that age it's fair wear and tear, your not covered anyway.

[DaveAF]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

We just found a local plumber, use him to service and what ever else I need a plumber to do. Same plumber is used by a a house down the road. They had a burst pipe when it was -9 before Christmas, no insurance plumber was there in 20 mins at 9pm.  Try getting that service from a call centre, that use a plumbers based miles away from you.

 

You may find you are paying insurance and when the boiler fails, they say at that age it's fair wear and tear, your not covered anyway.

Yes you're probably correct. 

Any idea how much it might cost to change our pipe from steel to copper? 

[DaveAF]

42 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

so this isn't really insurance, it's boiler breakdown cover and they want to make some money out of you?

I guess so. But they haven't offered to change the pipe to copper for us "for a price" . Our system just failed their eligibility check. 

Would changing the pipe from steel to copper be very expensive? 

[andyscotland]

Presumably you have the bells and whistles policy that covers leaks etc from the pipework as well as the boiler itself?

 

And presumably the existing provider will still cover the boiler/controls/radiators etc if it breaks down, they're just saying if the steel pipe fails they won't fix that?

 

And there's no particular reason to think the steel pipe will fail now - there's no obvious corrosion or damage - the insurer has just made a blanket change to their terms?

 

If all that is correct, I would personally probably just stay on the current policy and accept that length of pipe is not covered.

 

If it does fail, you will have to get it repaired / replaced at your cost - but that would probably not be much different to the cost of doing that now. And my gut feel (not a gas plumber, perhaps steel pipes are riskier than I assume) is that is probably quite unlikely anyway, if there's no history of issues.

 

Seems to me there's 3 possible scenarios:

 

* You pay now to replace it to keep it insured, your brand new copper pipe is very unlikely to need insurance work in the near future, so might as well not be insured.

 

* You leave it, nothing happens, no cost.

 

* You leave it, it fails in future, cost to repair/replace when it happens probably not that different to what it would cost now.

 

The only one of those that costs you more is upgrading the pipe now, for no real benefit.

 

And it likewise doesn't seem worth paying £400 a year more for a policy just to cover that length of pipe.

 

I would put some money in a savings account and deal with it if it becomes a problem, or when you're doing other work e.g. changing flooring / decorating (making good could be a big part of the cost if you do it as a standalone job).

[andyscotland]

2 minutes ago, DaveAF said:

I guess so. But they haven't offered to change the pipe to copper for us "for a price" . Our system just failed their eligibility check.

Ah, your post crossed with mine. 

 

So are they refusing cover at all unless you get it upgraded? Or would they be willing to offer a policy with that excluded?

 

2 minutes ago, DaveAF said:

Would changing the pipe from steel to copper be very expensive? 

I imagine it will depend on what access is like under the floor (can it be done from the crawl space or do the floorboards have to come up) and how much making good is needed. As well as where you are and how much a plumber near you wants the work. Probably hard to advise without seeing it.

[DaveAF]

19 hours ago, Conor said:

What does the insurance cover and do you need it?

It covers breakdown of our boiler and its controls.

The boiler is 15 years old and has been maintained since year 1 by british gas. Our basic level british gas insurance quote for this year had gone up to £565 and Homeserves quote was for about £170. 

The boiler inspection revealed the steel pipe from the meter to the kitchen. Copper pipes after the kitchen. 

Would it be expensive to replace the steel with copper? 

[DaveAF]

7 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

Presumably you have the bells and whistles policy that covers leaks etc from the pipework as well as the boiler itself?

 

And presumably the existing provider will still cover the boiler/controls/radiators etc if it breaks down, they're just saying if the steel pipe fails they won't fix that?

 

And there's no particular reason to think the steel pipe will fail now - there's no obvious corrosion or damage - the insurer has just made a blanket change to their terms?

 

If all that is correct, I would personally probably just stay on the current policy and accept that length of pipe is not covered.

 

If it does fail, you will have to get it repaired / replaced at your cost - but that would probably not be much different to the cost of doing that now. And my gut feel (not a gas plumber, perhaps steel pipes are riskier than I assume) is that is probably quite unlikely anyway, if there's no history of issues.

 

Seems to me there's 3 possible scenarios:

 

* You pay now to replace it to keep it insured, your brand new copper pipe is very unlikely to need insurance work in the near future, so might as well not be insured.

 

* You leave it, nothing happens, no cost.

 

* You leave it, it fails in future, cost to repair/replace when it happens probably not that different to what it would cost now.

 

The only one of those that costs you more is upgrading the pipe now, for no real benefit.

 

And it likewise doesn't seem worth paying £400 a year more for a policy just to cover that length of pipe.

 

I would put some money in a savings account and deal with it if it becomes a problem, or when you're doing other work e.g. changing flooring / decorating (making good could be a big part of the cost if you do it as a standalone job).

The boiler and controls passed inspection. Unfortunately they say that as they've found a steel pipe in the system, the entire system, boiler, controls and all are not covered. 

[DaveAF]

13 hours ago, Marvin said:

Hi @DaveAF

 

Yes, your right about the mains pipe ownership, however what I was wondering was, if the insurance company is worried about your steel pipe being an insurance risk, do they not consider the steel main pipe the same risk?

 

It all seems strange to me. 

 

 

 

 

Very. 

[DaveAF]

9 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

Ah, your post crossed with mine. 

 

So are they refusing cover at all unless you get it upgraded? Or would they be willing to offer a policy with that excluded?

 

I imagine it will depend on what access is like under the floor (can it be done from the crawl space or do the floorboards have to come up) and how much making good is needed. As well as where you are and how much a plumber near you wants the work. Probably hard to advise without seeing it.

Understood.

New kitchen put in last year so the wife doesn't like the idea of half of that being dismantled anyway. 

So far Homeserve have been pretty useless, it took 3 appointments to get a plumber on site for the first boiler and system inspection but I suppose they might be very busy. 

 

They have yet to call me about Monday's failed inspection and when they do thats when I find out if I can change to a boiler cover only insurance policy and not cover the pipes. 

Thanks for your observations. 

[Conor]

I think you'd be looking at least £400. For no benefit what so ever. I'd be ditching the cover and start putting money away each month towards an eventual boiler replacement / breakdown in 5-10 years time. I've never seen the value in these sort of polices, I've never paid more than £50 for an annual inspection / service and the only issue I had in a boiler in nearly 15 years cost £200 to sort.

[andyscotland]

12 minutes ago, DaveAF said:

The boiler and controls passed inspection. Unfortunately they say that as they've found a steel pipe in the system, the entire system, boiler, controls and all are not covered. 

 

That seems very odd. I just looked quickly at the Homeserve T&Cs and they explicitly exclude "any gas supply pipe made of steel" in the "What's not covered" bit. Normally when insurers list exclusions that means they can provide cover so long as a specific claim doesn't relate to one of the excluded items.

 

I would press them hard on whether there's really no way they could offer the policy on that basis. I can't see how it could hurt them to be charging you the full premium but have a whole class of claims they wouldn't ever have to pay out on! 🤣It's not even like it's something where there could be a grey area as to whether it's relevant to a fault.

[DaveAF]

23 minutes ago, Conor said:

I think you'd be looking at least £400. For no benefit what so ever. I'd be ditching the cover and start putting money away each month towards an eventual boiler replacement / breakdown in 5-10 years time. I've never seen the value in these sort of polices, I've never paid more than £50 for an annual inspection / service and the only issue I had in a boiler in nearly 15 years cost £200 to sort.

Thats good advice. Thanks for helping. 

[DaveAF]

25 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

 

That seems very odd. I just looked quickly at the Homeserve T&Cs and they explicitly exclude "any gas supply pipe made of steel" in the "What's not covered" bit. Normally when insurers list exclusions that means they can provide cover so long as a specific claim doesn't relate to one of the excluded items.

 

I would press them hard on whether there's really no way they could offer the policy on that basis. I can't see how it could hurt them to be charging you the full premium but have a whole class of claims they wouldn't ever have to pay out on! 🤣It's not even like it's something where there could be a grey area as to whether it's relevant to a fault.

That's certainly worth exploring.

 

So am I right in thinking that its highly unlikely that a piece of corroded steel pipe could travel from inside the pipe all the way up to the boiler on the first floor and cause it to break down?

I guess that they might say that could happen. 

Does pipe corrosion happen on the outside of a pipe or on the inside too? 

Thanks again for your thoughts. Much appreciated. 

David

[andyscotland]

2 hours ago, DaveAF said:

That's certainly worth exploring.

 

So am I right in thinking that its highly unlikely that a piece of corroded steel pipe could travel from inside the pipe all the way up to the boiler on the first floor and cause it to break down?

I guess that they might say that could happen. 

Does pipe corrosion happen on the outside of a pipe or on the inside too? 

Thanks again for your thoughts. Much appreciated. 

David

 

Probably a question for someone who knows more about gas than me 🤣 but from my high school physics, steel generally corrodes in presence of oxygen and moisture and I wouldn't expect either of those things to be inside a pipe full of natural gas in any noticeable quantity.

 

Certainly less than in the air on the outside of the pipe, so I would assume corrosion is much more likely from outside-in than inside-out.

 

I'd hate for you to rely on my random-guy-on-the-internet's-opinion but to my completely unqualified mind I'd be amazed if the pipe could affect the boiler other than by leaking & failing to get gas to it at adequate pressure.

[DaveAF]

4 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

 

Probably a question for someone who knows more about gas than me 🤣 but from my high school physics, steel generally corrodes in presence of oxygen and moisture and I wouldn't expect either of those things to be inside a pipe full of natural gas in any noticeable quantity.

 

Certainly less than in the air on the outside of the pipe, so I would assume corrosion is much more likely from outside-in than inside-out.

 

I'd hate for you to rely on my random-guy-on-the-internet's-opinion but to my completely unqualified mind I'd be amazed if the pipe could affect the boiler other than by leaking & failing to get gas to it at adequate pressure.

Yes thats all logical. Thanks again. 

[markocosic]

That cover is worthless.

 

If cash is tight get a credit card. Use it to pay for repairs in the event that they are required. Pay it back in installments or with a personal loan etc. it will be cheaper than the insurance and involves a whole load less paperwork aggro.

 

Servicing (check nothing has fallen off, check flue gas emissions, check water quality) every other year is plenty for a domestic installation IMO. They don't suddenly dissolve overnight and a decent tech will flag "deteriorated but not needing attention yet" in addition to "need fixing now" etc. Probably once every five years if it's a decent installation to begin with.

 

Perhaps even plan to cap the gas and swap to a heat pump one day. (e.g. adding induction hob when renovating kitchen) This eliminates the pipe and a chunk of carbon emissions at the same time. 🙂

[marshian]

I have a steel pipe in the same configuration - well actually slightly worse - I have three legs on it

 

1. Boiler (1m Max)

2. Old gas fire removed and pipe capped (5m Max)

3. Kitchen hob (2.5m Max)

 

It's been like that since the house was built in 1980 - Having a suspended floor and access to underneath I can confirm there has been negligible external corrosion over the past 40 plus years

 

However I've never had boiler cover other than a manufactures warranty (same goes for any other electrical appliance where "extended cover" is available. I effectively self insure I divert a small sum every month to building society account to cover repairs/replacements for anything that breaks.

 

As a result next week I'm replacing my boiler (which is 15 years old) before it fails - I'm not having to fund it on a credit card - it's a well researched choice (my current boiler was probably a poorly researched choice at the time) and is coming out of the "household fund"

 

I've also previously done the same with pet insurance which is always a battle to keep to an affordable level as pets get older (although I recognise that this is probably a higher risk process)

 

It's quite surprising how much people do pay on appliance cover - my neighbour does everything that way and he said his monthly cost was £260 - I put away £100 a month and it seems to work for me

 

I may reduce that once I've paid the balance on the boiler replacement as it'll have a 10 year warranty but as it's going to be down to £550 (ish) I may keep it the same till it's built up above £1000 again