Barn style design

[Bozza]

@Amateur bob

 

so a big cost for services connections is going under roads, and under/over other peoples land.  And SSEN etc will sub contract out the trench digging.  So if you can dig trenches through to your land then it’s just really the cost of running cables to your plug from nearest supply & hooking up.  A few grand yes but not tens of thousands as can otherwise be the case.  Assuming waste will be on site so no drainage connections.  Septic tanks & soakaways.  So big holes for you to dig so again savings there.   If you want a landline phone connection Openreach are notoriously difficult & expensive to deal with so consider 4g etc if you are nowhere near a phone line.   Plenty of previous posts on this site re these issues.

 

regarding building material.  If you are not keen on timber then as stated white render is your best option budget wise.  To build with entirely with natural stone even if as a skin over a timber clad frame is very time consuming and thus very expensive.  Especially if you want the whole building done.  I’m fairly certain planners won’t like house bricks. Natural stone brick slips I’m uncertain about the costs and whether feasible planning wise.

 

You need to have a chat with your planners to see what they will accept material wise.  To keep within your budget I think you will probably have to compromise on 100% stone.    Especially if they want slate too.

 

@saveasteadingis advising that they probably won’t like using stone as quoins etc with render in new builds  which isn’t really in keeping with rural Scotland architecture.  Housing estate yes, but not rural Scotland no.  Unless your local old building look like that.  Which I doubt they do.  However the use of natural local stone can be accomplished as I have suggested in sections as a nod to local material.

The planners are not dictating what you must build.  What they are trying to do is to encourage you to build something that blends in. It’s your job (or architects) to come up with something that (a) blends in / meets planning policy in your area (b) that you like (c) that you can afford.

 

So you need materials and and a design that is representative and sympathetic to your area.  In shape height and look, that you can afford.    So your palette is very likely to be, in cost order walls:  timber, render, stone.  And roof steel, slate.    Once you understand which palette the planners are keen on then you can come up with a design.  
 

can you post an image of your rejected design? And plot?  All this helps us to give you right help.  

Edited January 4, 2023 by Bozza

[Papillon]

Have you had a look at the Hebhomes Longhouses?  
they are relatively barn style, and you can use them to see if the planners are up for it and if you can afford them.

https://www.hebhomes.com/our-homes/layout/lh402p

[Kelvin]

It’s HH Longhouse we’re building and it sailed through planning. HH have a lot of success getting their designs through planning. Not sure I could recommend HH as a company to deal with though as we’ve found them hard work. I don’t know whether that’s typical and the others are much the same though. 

[Amateur bob]

2 hours ago, Bozza said:

@Amateur bob

 

so a big cost for services connections is going under roads, and under/over other peoples land.  And SSEN etc will sub contract out the trench digging.  So if you can dig trenches through to your land then it’s just really the cost of running cables to your plug from nearest supply & hooking up.  A few grand yes but not tens of thousands as can otherwise be the case.  Assuming waste will be on site so no drainage connections.  Septic tanks & soakaways.  So big holes for you to dig so again savings there.   If you want a landline phone connection Openreach are notoriously difficult & expensive to deal with so consider 4g etc if you are nowhere near a phone line.   Plenty of previous posts on this site re these issues.

 

regarding building material.  If you are not keen on timber then as stated white render is your best option budget wise.  To build with entirely with natural stone even if as a skin over a timber clad frame is very time consuming and thus very expensive.  Especially if you want the whole building done.  I’m fairly certain planners won’t like house bricks. Natural stone brick slips I’m uncertain about the costs and whether feasible planning wise.

 

You need to have a chat with your planners to see what they will accept material wise.  To keep within your budget I think you will probably have to compromise on 100% stone.    Especially if they want slate too.

 

@saveasteadingis advising that they probably won’t like using stone as quoins etc with render in new builds  which isn’t really in keeping with rural Scotland architecture.  Housing estate yes, but not rural Scotland no.  Unless your local old building look like that.  Which I doubt they do.  However the use of natural local stone can be accomplished as I have suggested in sections as a nod to local material.

The planners are not dictating what you must build.  What they are trying to do is to encourage you to build something that blends in. It’s your job (or architects) to come up with something that (a) blends in / meets planning policy in your area (b) that you like (c) that you can afford.

 

So you need materials and and a design that is representative and sympathetic to your area.  In shape height and look, that you can afford.    So your palette is very likely to be, in cost order walls:  timber, render, stone.  And roof steel, slate.    Once you understand which palette the planners are keen on then you can come up with a design.  
 

can you post an image of your rejected design? And plot?  All this helps us to give you right help.  

 

heres the thread with pics of the origional plan on my first post, yes im thinking timber frame will be the best option for me, so your saying if i had it in white render with some natural stone features on the walls here and there the planners arent too keen on this? its a nightmare trying to get hold of them on the phone to discuss things

[Amateur bob]

40 minutes ago, Papillon said:

Have you had a look at the Hebhomes Longhouses?  
they are relatively barn style, and you can use them to see if the planners are up for it and if you can afford them.

https://www.hebhomes.com/our-homes/layout/lh402p

ive had a look it seems like a possible option seems i have to log in to see floorplans etc, is this quite a cost effective option?

[Amateur bob]

37 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

It’s HH Longhouse we’re building and it sailed through planning. HH have a lot of success getting their designs through planning. Not sure I could recommend HH as a company to deal with though as we’ve found them hard work. I don’t know whether that’s typical and the others are much the same though. 

really what have been the issues with them and do they operate in central scotland? and are they expensive?

 

thanks

[Kelvin]

They can provide a house anywhere in the UK and have done a few abroad. 
 

The main issues we have are: 

 

1. Their communication is poor. Days can go past with no response and you can’t get them on the phone. 
2. Their attention to detail is poor. I’ve lost count of the number of errors I’ve spotted. 
3. We are months behind where we should have been and it’s because of them and their partners. e.g. 11 weeks for SE report after being told it would be 5 weeks. Planning and warrant were pretty much achieved within the published timelines. 

 

They aren’t the cheapest but I couldn’t tell you how that directly compares to other timber kit companies. They have prices on their website but that’s a guideline. Ours was dearer but we made it 20m² bigger which adds a lot of cost and all the windows are 3G including rooflights and we added a window to the flat roof section. 
 

We love the final design though and it’s exactly what we wanted. Their floorplans make full use of the space so there’s no feature staircase and grand hallway for example. We’ve also visited a few of their houses and like the finish that can be achieved albeit that’s down to your builder really. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Kelvin

[Bozza]

@Amateur bobi can understand why you application was rejected your original design is perfectly normal inoffensive house but is what you’d normally see on a nice housing scheme, it would have stick out in a rural setting a single house in your area.  Likewise a barn style house in 1930s street in a city would stick out & likely be refused.

 

Others have given you a good tip search approved designs in your local area.

So what I was saying was if you use white render with a dash of local stonework in your design that shows respect to local architecture.  

 

The attached pic shows how you can incorporate stonework and render into a modern build.  The architect is an award winning one in my area. Important thing is you’re not trying to build something as a faux barn or whatever, you’re trying to blend it in.    Don’t forget though this is all about what the building looks like from the outside, you can still have a traditional layout inside. Planners aren’t really bothered about that.   Massive double height open plan barns require expensive steelwork.  You don’t.  

Amongst the numerous links you’ve been provided you should find something you can use that will be acceptable.

 

I think you will be able to build something suitably simple but beautiful, in keeping with rural setting, with render and some stonework, and within your budget. I think you’ll end up with something far better than what you applied to build and you will thank the planners (and perhaps this forum.  
 

When you see these Grand Designs type houses on the telly going £1m over budget or whatever there is a common theme.  They are trying to be too clever, too big, or trying to build something to feature in a magazine.  Not an actual normal house.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ETC]

A couple of my ideas.

[ETC]

Totally slate or burnt larch.

[Amateur bob]

18 hours ago, Kelvin said:

They can provide a house anywhere in the UK and have done a few abroad. 
 

The main issues we have are: 

 

1. Their communication is poor. Days can go past with no response and you can’t get them on the phone. 
2. Their attention to detail is poor. I’ve lost count of the number of errors I’ve spotted. 
3. We are months behind where we should have been and it’s because of them and their partners. e.g. 11 weeks for SE report after being told it would be 5 weeks. Planning and warrant were pretty much achieved within the published timelines. 

 

They aren’t the cheapest but I couldn’t tell you how that directly compares to other timber kit companies. They have prices on their website but that’s a guideline. Ours was dearer but we made it 20m² bigger which adds a lot of cost and all the windows are 3G including rooflights and we added a window to the flat roof section. 
 

We love the final design though and it’s exactly what we wanted. Their floorplans make full use of the space so there’s no feature staircase and grand hallway for example. We’ve also visited a few of their houses and like the finish that can be achieved albeit that’s down to your builder really. 

 

interesting to hear how youve got on, what sort of price range all in would the 4 bed ones on their website be?

 

thanks

[Amateur bob]

15 hours ago, ETC said:

A couple of my ideas.

thanks, the bottom one would prob be the cheaper of the 2 to build? although being on one level means more foundations and roof cost than if it had an upstairs?

[Amateur bob]

17 hours ago, Bozza said:

@Amateur bobi can understand why you application was rejected your original design is perfectly normal inoffensive house but is what you’d normally see on a nice housing scheme, it would have stick out in a rural setting a single house in your area.  Likewise a barn style house in 1930s street in a city would stick out & likely be refused.

 

Others have given you a good tip search approved designs in your local area.

So what I was saying was if you use white render with a dash of local stonework in your design that shows respect to local architecture.  

 

The attached pic shows how you can incorporate stonework and render into a modern build.  The architect is an award winning one in my area. Important thing is you’re not trying to build something as a faux barn or whatever, you’re trying to blend it in.    Don’t forget though this is all about what the building looks like from the outside, you can still have a traditional layout inside. Planners aren’t really bothered about that.   Massive double height open plan barns require expensive steelwork.  You don’t.  

Amongst the numerous links you’ve been provided you should find something you can use that will be acceptable.

 

I think you will be able to build something suitably simple but beautiful, in keeping with rural setting, with render and some stonework, and within your budget. I think you’ll end up with something far better than what you applied to build and you will thank the planners (and perhaps this forum.  
 

When you see these Grand Designs type houses on the telly going £1m over budget or whatever there is a common theme.  They are trying to be too clever, too big, or trying to build something to feature in a magazine.  Not an actual normal house.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks bozza, is that stonework likely to be bought in or will it be taken from old dykes in the local area and a stone masonary turn up to do that part? would bought in sandstone already cut etc likely be accepted by planners to go with the white render?

 

yes im starting to get a rough idea now about the shape/materials etc in fairness i wasnt that pleased about the origional designs living area/kitchen etc only being 3.2m wide

 

thanks

[Kelvin]

50 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

interesting to hear how youve got on, what sort of price range all in would the 4 bed ones on their website be?

 

thanks

 

They have a price calculator that includes turnkey on their website. e.g. the LH302PD comes in at £457k for a SIP build but makes big assumptions about services and groundswork, is a basic standard build, and doesn’t include any of the fees. The reality is likely to be £50k-£100k dearer for turnkey. I am hoping to come in around £450k including the garage managing the trades myself etc for 202m²

Their prices have increased significantly since we first started looking. Their SFS kit (previously called CPS) was significantly cheaper than their SIPs kits with their CLT kits being the dearest. For a while both the SFS and SIP kits were similarly priced to the CLT kit (which is imported from Austria) Since the start of the year they’ve now removed the CLT kit citing timber and inflation costs so you need to call them to discuss. 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Kelvin

[Kelvin]

29 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

thanks bozza, is that stonework likely to be bought in or will it be taken from old dykes in the local area and a stone masonary turn up to do that part? would bought in sandstone already cut etc likely be accepted by planners to go with the white render?

 

yes im starting to get a rough idea now about the shape/materials etc in fairness i wasnt that pleased about the origional designs living area/kitchen etc only being 3.2m wide

 

thanks

Farmers often have piles of stone they might sell you. However, the type of stone really depends on where you are. Stone dykes in much of Perthshire tend to be made from sizeable boulders whereas in Angus they are made from flat sandstone that’s easy to face. Having built dry stone walls in both counties I know which I prefer handling. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Kelvin

[ETC]

59 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

thanks, the bottom one would prob be the cheaper of the 2 to build? although being on one level means more foundations and roof cost than if it had an upstairs?

Could easily accommodate an upstairs.

Edited January 5, 2023 by ETC

[Kelvin]

The bottom one looks just like a Heb Home Longhouse. Could easily accommodate a 1.5 storey design. The ridge height is 6.1m 

[Amateur bob]

2 hours ago, ETC said:

Could easily accommodate an upstairs.

what do u reckon roughly i could build that design for with upstairs, organising tradesman myself?

[Amateur bob]

3 hours ago, Kelvin said:

 

They have a price calculator that includes turnkey on their website. e.g. the LH302PD comes in at £457k for a SIP build but makes big assumptions about services and groundswork, is a basic standard build, and doesn’t include any of the fees. The reality is likely to be £50k-£100k dearer for turnkey. I am hoping to come in around £450k including the garage managing the trades myself etc for 202m²

Their prices have increased significantly since we first started looking. Their SFS kit (previously called CPS) was significantly cheaper than their SIPs kits with their CLT kits being the dearest. For a while both the SFS and SIP kits were similarly priced to the CLT kit (which is imported from Austria) Since the start of the year they’ve now removed the CLT kit citing timber and inflation costs so you need to call them to discuss. 

 

that seems incredibly expensive?? i has hoping to build something for 270k max all in!

[Kelvin]

Kit houses aren’t cheap. 
 

When you say all in do you mean everything including all fees, professional costs, planning and warrant costs? 
 

Do you have budget quotes for services yet? They can be high. Our first leccy quote was £26500. I’d budgeted £5k. It ended up £1016 and I then got a £545 refund but required me doing everything myself other than run the cable from the pole to my kiosk. 
 

You want a 4 bed house so let’s say 200m² which means £1350/m². That’s maybe doable if you do most of it yourself. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Kelvin

[saveasteading]

51 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

i has hoping to build something for 270k max all in!

What floor area?

 

Best get learning some trades and professions, and especially building science, and site management.

 

A main contractor who is also PM can be taking 30% on top of the nett costs. You could keep that but be taking on risk.

Every contractor has margins and overheads. sometimes a series of workers/subby/bigger subby/main contractor can be adding margins on margins on margins. Also on top of materials. And it is fair as they have costs and risks.

 

Mostly though the current stage is crucial for costs. Avoid anything out of the ordinary, and building more than you need.

 

No, really mostly, after thought, is that it seems that you aren't experienced in construction. Therefore beware of all the surprises that are yet to come, of designers who tell you what you want to hear, and of gimmicks. allow between 10% and 20% for unknowns, and gradually design them out.

I think we are starting from : 'forget about masonry'.

 

I have a rule of thumb for early advice to clients, that whether built as single or 2 storey, the useful floor area cost is much the same. Thus use 2 storey where land is scarce and single where you can.  IF the ground is good, and some more IFs that are site specific.

[Kelvin]

Definitely have a look at the Heb Homes website though for ideas on what's doable layout wise. They do lots of different Longhouse designs and have a few smaller 4 bedroom houses of circa 130m².

[Bozza]

The stone in the last picture will be dressed granite blocks, probably the downtakings from a local building.  Dressed as in one side has been split and chiselled flat, obviously corner blocks two sides.  Up here for dressed granite blocks you’re talking £10-20 per block.  I sold loads off my site so I know.  Dunno how much your local stone costs etc.

Whether undressed stones can be used in your locality I don’t know it’s down to what’s used there.  You can source stones from your site, from local landowners, and up here there are a few dealers.  Sometimes sold on Facebook.

 

with your budget (and mine which was similar) you won’t be able to build it entirely with natural stone I’m afraid.  Aim for mainly render as you’re not keen on timber.  
 

if you can’t afford to incorporate stone In your build and really want some stonework consider building a low stone rubble dyke around your house.  I’m currently doing exactly that.  Costs zero as I have heaps of stones in my land and lots of time available.   Your local quarry can also supply stones for dyking.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bozza]

10 hours ago, Kelvin said:

I am hoping to come in around £450k including the garage managing the trades myself etc for 202m²

 

Jeez @Kelvinis that including the plot? 

[Kelvin]

Nope. The garage is £35k including the foundation and associated works. This is for an insulated 10.5mx6m garage. We are on a slope so the groundworks are dearer and we need a 25m retaining wall albeit it’s not very high. All the Windows including the rooflights are 3G. Water is via a borehole and sewerage via treatment plant and soakaway. 
 

Plus inflation. I reckon it’s added 20% since we first looked at it 3 years ago. The timber kit itself is £25k dearer than it was 4 years ago. We’re also spending more than planned on the kitchen. I looked at DiY kitchens but they didn’t have the look we wanted. We are using them for the utility room though. 
 

That cost also includes all the professional fees and planning & warrant application.