Snagging

[Scots Build]

Is there any requirement for a main contractor builder to carry out snagging on a new build?  House was finished last year and although is generally to a high standard, there are a couple of niggles that are annoying me and I'm getting the silent treatment from the builder.

 

There was no contract agreement or talk of snagging prior to the build and no money retention etc.  They have sent decorators in to sort a couple of minor interior cracks but have gone silent on everything else.

 

The main issues I have are:

 

Cracks in polished concrete floor

Top landing of Oak stair separating between the boards

Exterior render cracking and bulging

Couple of edging half slates fell off (have since fixed myself)

 

I'm just not sure if I'm wasting time and energy chasing the builder and should accept they won't resolve and move on, or if they have any sort of obligation to correct issues?

 

 

[Gus Potter]

45 minutes ago, Scots Build said:

Is there any requirement for a main contractor builder to carry out snagging on a new build?  House was finished last year

I'm being very general here but to give you a flavour of the way things operate.

 

For the avoidance of doubt I'm including some of the companies that are major developers and medium sized ones that are underwriten by the major warranty providers in the UK. I'm not going to name them.. suffice to say that I have won a number of claims again them similar to what you describe. Small builders that may be building you an extension,.. don't say much here on small builders as this may require a partially differant approach.. assuming there may be a cash element to that type of transaction.

 

If you are a domestic home owner then surprisingly you often do have legitimate recourse against the medium and bigger developers. But you will probably need to spend a bit of time and possibly a bit of money to overcome this hurdle.

 

If a new build.. in the first couple of years the medium sized builder upwards is probably playing the war of attrition.. they know a lot of folk complain but only a few will take it any further..(some folk post bad things on facebook etc) the warranty provider often does not hold the ball until two years have elasped.. hence the lack of initial response.

 

Take a young couple who have saved up to buy a house and they move in. Cracks appear / drains block say and they feel that they have not got what they paid for. Over the years I have become aware that this is a numbers game for builders and their warranty providers. The warranty providers are essentially insurance companies  so this is all about paying out less than you get in premiums and the difference between the two is essentially their profit. Just like car insurance they have a "claims avoidance" department / culture..?

 

I'll deal with the jobbing builder (say a small extension)  in another post if there is any interest. But the some of the same rules apply.. often you won't have a formal industry standard contract with the very small builder.. you may be doing a deal.. part cash?

 

Take a medium builder up to the majors. They send their "surveyor in a suit" and offer to do a bit or just send the decorators.. that reduces the field quite a lot.. folk feel.. well we got something out of them.

 

As a domestic home owner you are entitled to a certain standard of workmanship. You are also entitled to a structurally safe home.. all covered under the consumer protection act not least. You are as a home owner are entitled to a product that will perform.

 

@Scots Build If you want to pursue this you have options, there are others but here are a couple.

 

Builders/ house developers often give domestic home owners the run around. They are experts at it and they caveat the sale conditions very heavily.. you need to clear a lot of hoops to gain satisfaction. Caveats include cracking / shrinkage and a whole host of other things in the fine print.

 

What I do is this when acting on behalf of a Client is this..

 

Rather than arguing about crack sizes / workmanship on say sticky doors, opening mitres, floor levels say on facings that are open to interpretation in the desing codes I look under the bonnet.  I always ask myself.. what is causing the cracks, blocked drains, in adequate wall ties for example, walls out of plumb. I then look at the what could be structurally wrong. I can tell you that I will 90% of the time I will find a "structural non compliance" when I look under the bonnet. I don't do random opening up stuff as I know from experience where folk cut corners.

 

 

1 hour ago, Scots Build said:

Exterior render cracking and bulging

I would focus on for example and investigate.. the things that are cheep and simple to do SE wise as it keeps your bill down ...is it the render.. but that could be a symptom of underlying malaise.. I would check the wall for alignment.. is it out of plumb, are the wall ties correctly installed, are the cavities the correct size and clean? If the cavities vary too much coupled with the outside leaf leaning out and the inside leaf leaning in then they are often stuffed as the wall ties no longer comply with the design codes they have probably used. This is easily checked with a plumb bob. simple technology. I check the connections of floor joists for example.

 

Fire protection is a cracker.. one failure is a no no in this day and age. I look at a load of other things too.. could be that I notice that electrical cables are too close to heating pipes.. on the face of it you may think that it is not within an SE remit.. but anything that could potentially cause a detrimental effect to the structure.. say cables or heating pipes that could cause fire or comprimise the strength of a stuctural member does fall in my remit. I only need to ask.. hey I see this.. can you confirm it is OK? I don't need to be an Electrician I just need to apply common sense and are entitleled to ask these queations as a professional.

 

Now it may seem harsh. But if I write in my SE report that you instructed me to do a prelimiary survey and I look in two places that are of interest to me and find one out of two items that are non compliant in terms of fire design.. that is a 50% failure rate.. it raises questions..

 

I guess where I need to look, say open up a small part of the ceiling to expose a joist hanger.. is it fully nailed, it it installed as per the manufacture's instructions. Find one thing wrong and you have them over a barrel.

 

I have found in the past that the developer comes back with.. what are you on about.. we are big boys and you are not.. our SE says its ok. I call their SE and say do you know about this.. they say no.. In then say who is responsible for the fire design?  now the the developers own SE has washed their hands.. and the deveoper has lost the support of their own SE.

 

As soon as the SE bails out all the stuff about shrinkage is blown out of the water.

 

I have found that as soon as you say.. Hey I have found evidence that the building does not comply structurally and I need you to come to the table to discuss it changes the game. If you don't come to the table I'm going to report you to the HSE and my Client is going to sue you as you have sold them an unsafe building. The HSE stuff will impact on their insurance premiums.. you aim for their pocket. Have found that this approach gets their attention as you have moved the goal posts big time. From experience your complaint will rapidly get moved up to "director" level.

 

Funnily I have had quite a lot of success with this approach.. maybe I'm just lucky?

 

The above is a bit of an insight into how you may approach your problem.

 

If you want to pursue this you need to pick your battles and hit them where it hurts.

 

Always remember that you bought the house in good faith.. you are not at fault.

 

Hope this helps you either rule in or rule out how you may want to progress.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

Gus is right of course.

You have to be very determined and stroppy or you get the brush-off, esp ftom the big developers.

Not every crack and creak is a major problem.

The brush-off  can move from politely ignoring, to bullying.

The big developers' Architects and Engineers may be very good, but are  usually selected on lowest price, and without an overall responsibility.

 

There are well documented cases of very serious design faults being denied....their reputation strangely not being their main concern. 

 

It seems though that your issues may not be so serious. Photos?

[Dave Jones]

20 hours ago, Scots Build said:

Is there any requirement for a main contractor builder to carry out snagging on a new build?  House was finished last year and although is generally to a high standard, there are a couple of niggles that are annoying me and I'm getting the silent treatment from the builder.

 

There was no contract agreement or talk of snagging prior to the build and no money retention etc.  They have sent decorators in to sort a couple of minor interior cracks but have gone silent on everything else.

 

The main issues I have are:

 

Cracks in polished concrete floor

Top landing of Oak stair separating between the boards

Exterior render cracking and bulging

Couple of edging half slates fell off (have since fixed myself)

 

I'm just not sure if I'm wasting time and energy chasing the builder and should accept they won't resolve and move on, or if they have any sort of obligation to correct issues?

 

 

 

builder you employed or finished house bought off a developer ?

[Pocster]

Sorry mis read the ‘n’ as an ‘h’ 

[Mr Punter]

This is a strange one.  Did you engage this contractor to build your house to your / your architects specification with no contract or written agreement?

 

If so, you have all your standard consumer rights, just as you would with any firm and the small claims court may have to be your final arbiter.  You could also talk to Trading Standards and find out if the builder is a member of any trade body or organisation like Checkatrade etc and talk to them.

 

This is different from your rights if you had purchased a new house where you would normally expect a snagging period, a 2 year defects warranty with the developer and a further 8 year insurance warranty with the warranty company.

[Scots Build]

Thanks for the replies guys, especially the very detailed one from Gus

 

It is a main contractor builder I engaged, to build my own, architect designed house.  The only paperwork between us was a signed quote 

 

I have bought a new build off a developer in the past, so know about NHBC and the householders rights there etc, but just not sure what rights I have to have issues/snags fixed in my current situation. 

 

Polished concrete crack

 

Cracked exterior render

 

Bulging exterior render

 

Cracked grouting in wetroom shower floor

 

Gaps opening up between boards on stair landing

Edited November 15, 2022 by Scots Build

[Dave Jones]

5 hours ago, Scots Build said:

 

 

It is a main contractor builder I engaged, to build my own, architect designed house.  

 

 

 

 

then you have his goodwill and nothing else.

[Scots Build]

12 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

then you have his goodwill and nothing else.

Thanks.  Although not the answer I hoped for, it is the information that I was asking for

 

I'll just have to move on

[PeterW]

You may have cause for reclaim based on reasonable quality - it’s not reasonable to get bulging in walls with render and I would want to know why it’s done that.

 

Stairs - that’s just internal humidity

 

Grout worries me more - that’s a wet room so is it properly tanked underneath and does it need to be stripped and regrouted for water resistance. 

[Gus Potter]

On 15/11/2022 at 02:08, Scots Build said:

Polished concrete crack

That crack looks like something that has got a grip of the edge of the floor and stopped it from moving at the cover plate between the tiles and the concrete.. The rest, if isolated, are probably hard to argue about.

 

Before you chuck in the towel is there anything on the outside of the building that corresponds with the crack in the floor?

 

Also have you checked the floor for level?

 

Another thing it could be is that if these are door standards (can't quite tell from the photo) they are often fitted later on top of the concrete.. then they may have swelled and be bearing down on the floor slab at its weak spot. Check to see if they are in contact with the concrete at the bottom. The joiner may have tightly sprung the standards into place.. that coupled with a bit of swelling could be another cause. The shape of the crack (an arc) suggests that something might be loading the concrete at the edges of the opening?

 

 

[Scots Build]

On 16/11/2022 at 22:01, Gus Potter said:

Before you chuck in the towel is there anything on the outside of the building that corresponds with the crack in the floor?

 

Also have you checked the floor for level?

 

Another thing it could be is that if these are door standards (can't quite tell from the photo) they are often fitted later on top of the concrete.. then they may have swelled and be bearing down on the floor slab at its weak spot. Check to see if they are in contact with the concrete at the bottom. The joiner may have tightly sprung the standards into place.. that coupled with a bit of swelling could be another cause. The shape of the crack (an arc) suggests that something might be loading the concrete at the edges of the opening?

 

 

There's nothing on the exterior where the floor crack is thankfully, I think I'll just mix up some cement and fill it in, hope for the best

 

Not sure what a door standard is that you refer to.  The house is a timber frame kit sitting on top of a polished concrete slab with UFH (which isn't leaking etc.  

[saveasteading]

Late comment. The concrete cracks are fairly standard, unless you have ultra specialist design and contractor

Concrete shrinks. If it can't move freely it cracks. If your crack repair looks untidy you could plant a hardwood threshhold over it.