YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, joth said:

My cabinet is a mess, as I arranged terminals purely for what was convenient for internal cabinet lacing, which left the cat6 side a complete jungle of wires.

 

The screenshot above is for another I'll be installing in the next few weeks. Learning from my own, I'm arranging it to optimise more for consistent layout on the cat6 side. Even connecting up unused cores, just so they're all accounted for 

I'll let you know how that goes and post photos if it's something I feel a bit more proud of 😂

I was going to terminate the Cat6a into a separate enclosure and run only the cores I need to the Loxone cabinet as was discussed much earlier in this thread. 

[joth]

5 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

So terminal block #6 is a separated terminal block, right?

Yes

 

The interconnected ones have the black border around the connected terminals. I could make that more clear if documenting it for someone else, but this was enough for me to follow so far 😄

[joth]

4 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I was going to terminate the Cat6a into a separate enclosure and run only the cores I need to the Loxone cabinet as was discussed much earlier in this thread. 

Ah yes in that case my advice is perhaps less useful.

The approach I've adopted on my latest project was exactly to avoid me having to do that two enclosure trick. 

 

I'd be interested what utility you find the wiedmuller terminals offer in your setup, for their cost. In theory the quick onsite install could all be achieved with the punch down blocks alone. 

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, joth said:

Yes

 

The interconnected ones have the black border around the connected terminals. I could make that more clear if documenting it for someone else, but this was enough for me to follow so far 😄

Right, I see that now. I’ve a lot more reading to do on this subject to figure out what needs what. I’m sure writing it down will help!

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, joth said:

Ah yes in that case my advice is perhaps less useful.

The approach I've adopted on my latest project was exactly to avoid me having to do that two enclosure trick. 

 

I'd be interested what utility you find the wiedmuller terminals offer in your setup, for their cost. In theory the quick onsite install could all be achieved with the punch down blocks alone. 

I honestly don’t know! It just seems that they’re what people use. 
 

I’ll have some time over the next month to do a lot more research while the plasterers crack on in the house. 

[joth]

5 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I honestly don’t know! It just seems that they’re what people use. 
 

I’ll have some time over the next month to do a lot more research while the plasterers crack on in the house. 

Yah I've seen many folks ruminate on benefits of 110 blocks but not heard many solid case studies from anyone that actually did it 😅

 

It seems with 2 enclosures you'll be lacing all the interconnects between them onsite rather than on the bench, so if you have time to do that what not lace it directly from the 110 to the Loxone extension device or whatever and skip the middle terminal block.

Maybe a few of the interconnected blocks to act as distribution for power and Tree to keep it all neat. I think it all depends on intended install (and maintenance) workflow, on bench vs in-situ 

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, joth said:

Yah I've seen many folks ruminate on benefits of 110 blocks but not heard many solid case studies from anyone that actually did it 😅

 

It seems with 2 enclosures you'll be lacing all the interconnects between them onsite rather than on the bench, so if you have time to do that what not lace it directly from the 110 to the Loxone extension device or whatever and skip the middle terminal block.

Maybe a few of the interconnected blocks to act as distribution for power and Tree to keep it all neat. I think it all depends on intended install (and maintenance) workflow, on bench vs in-situ 

Much to think about. But I’ll definitely make a start listing out cables and what they need. 

[Rob99]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

so far I have this:

• Tri-rated solid core hookup cable (1mm and 1.5mm)
• Gel filled crimps
• Crimp tool

I use 1.5mm tri-rated for all cabinet wiring except signal wiring which would be cat6A. To me, mixing different sizes of tri-rated never made sense from a build perspective as I didn't want to have a scenario where internal circuit changes (and there usually are some no matter how well you plan) could be compromised by having the wrong size cable (sods law!) requiring significant rewiring.

Use stranded tri-rated and bootlace ferrules on all terminations.

Not sure of the need for gel crimps inside the cabinet, never needed them myself.

Buy decent wire strippers and crimp tools. You'll be doing a hell of a lot of cable terminations and using the right tools is so much easier.

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

Looking at terminal blocks on the Loxone website there are 2 types, separated and interconnected.

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-20pcs.html

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-interconnected-20pcs.html

 

how do I know what to buy? and how do I work out how many I need?

Those blocks are only cat6A terminals. You will also need larger terminal blocks for all your other cabling both inside the cabinet and connections to external circuits.

3 hours ago, joth said:

You need to make a doc (spreadsheet) of all the things in the cabinet and what they all need to connect to.

Methodically work through all incoming cables, and all devices, to make a mapping

This is good advice and essential if you are to keep track of what you are doing. Planning the circuit wiring and cabinet layout/connections can be very time consuming but if done properly pays dividends when building your panel.

 

This is a clients cabinet I built last year so you can get an idea of what is included.

 

 

[Thorfun]

6 hours ago, Rob99 said:

Not sure of the need for gel crimps inside the cabinet

The gel crimps aren’t for the cabinet. 

 

6 hours ago, Rob99 said:

This is a clients cabinet I built last year so you can get an idea of what is included.

 

 

Thank you! Very useful and I’ll study it in detail. 
 

 

[Dan F]

On 27/07/2023 at 20:59, Thorfun said:

Looking at terminal blocks on the Loxone website there are 2 types, separated and interconnected.

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-20pcs.html

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-interconnected-20pcs.html

 

how do I know what to buy? and how do I work out how many I need?

 

Get all interconnected and take out the metal bridges inside them where you don't want them interconnected.   This way you can buy fewer boxes and end up with fewer leftovers when you are done!

Edited July 28, 2023 by Dan F

[Dan F]

21 hours ago, Rob99 said:

I use 1.5mm tri-rated for all cabinet wiring except signal wiring which would be cat6A. To me, mixing different sizes of tri-rated never made sense from a build perspective as I didn't want to have a scenario where internal circuit changes (and there usually are some no matter how well you plan) could be compromised by having the wrong size cable (sods law!) requiring significant rewiring.

Use stranded tri-rated and bootlace ferrules on all terminations.

Not sure of the need for gel crimps inside the cabinet, never needed them myself.

Buy decent wire strippers and crimp tools. You'll be doing a hell of a lot of cable terminations and using the right tools is so much easier.

 

Agree 100%.  In hindsight, I should have used all 1.5mm2 and not mixed sizes.  You'll only need to go a size up if there is anything > around 15A.   For me, it was UFH mats that had the highest current, but because I used power distribution, rather than daisy-chaining all of the lives on the relays, amps were less of a concern.  I splurged on a Weidmuller Crimp Set with a crimp tool, stripper etc, been invaluable.  All connections into terminal blocks need ferrules.

 

For all lighting, UFH, blinds, towel rails etc. you want different terminal blocks.   I know exactly what's needed from the Weidmuller range for installation and power distribution terminals (after days of working it out) but don't know the Phoenix Contact or Wago ranges.  Weidmuller (and the other manufacturers I think) actually have software which allows you to model the whole cabinet and all terminal blocks which is very useful and you can create placeholders for the Loxone kit too, to plan where these will go. Give me a shout if you want any of the Weidmuller details.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

qq. what cable do I need to power/run an iPad wall mounted controller? will a Cat6A cable do the job?

 

actually, I wonder if a double socket with USB sockets would be better? although that would need to be accessible locally rather than powered from the Loxone cabinet or network switch with POE?

Edited August 15, 2023 by Thorfun
added double socket potential option

[Thorfun]

Ok. So a simple PoE/usb adapter will do the job. Can power from the switch then. 

[joth]

On 27/07/2023 at 21:49, joth said:

I'll let you know how that goes and post photos if it's something I feel a bit more proud of 😂

Ok so yes, I completed second fix of my 2nd install today, and I'm much happier with how the CAT6A termination into the cabinet is looking, if still not perfection.

 

Top left corner:

 

To recap, my approach here is I'm still not using external 110 pushdown but instead use 8 way din terminal blocks to fully terminate every incoming CAT6 core (hopefully once and for all), and then any changes (of which we've had a couple already) are made on the internal cabinet lacing side of the terminal block rather than rewiring the external facing CAT6 side.

 

 

[Thorfun]

3 hours ago, joth said:

use 8 way din terminal blocks to fully terminate every incoming CAT6 core

looks nice! out of interest how many incoming Cat6 cables do you have?

[joth]

34 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

looks nice! out of interest how many incoming Cat6 cables do you have?

17 shown there. 7 GF, 7 FF, and 3 external. I'm extending Loxone Link to an exterior cabinet with relays (and could add DI in future) to minimise airtight penetrations for all the exterior and landscape lighting 

 

[Thorfun]

21 minutes ago, joth said:

17 shown there. 7 GF, 7 FF, and 3 external. I'm extending Loxone Link to an exterior cabinet with relays (and could add DI in future) to minimise airtight penetrations for all the exterior and landscape lighting 

 

Thanks. Very neat for 17 cables! Well done. 

[Thorfun]

evening all. can I ask what terminal blocks people used for the larger cables (not Cat6)? I'm struggling to Google what I would need as nothing seems to match up visually with the photos of people's setups.

[joth]

Aside the 8way for cat6 I pretty much only use the Loxone/Weidmueller 2+E and 3+E blocks 

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/installation-terminal-block-aitb.html

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/terminal-3-e-50pcs.html

[Rob99]

I use Wago 2002 series for all my panel builds, mainly double and triple height as below.

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/double-deck-terminal-block/p/2002-2201
https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/triple-deck-terminal-block/p/2002-3201

 

[Dan F]

11 hours ago, joth said:

Aside the 8way for cat6 I pretty much only use the Loxone/Weidmueller 2+E and 3+E blocks 

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/installation-terminal-block-aitb.html

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/terminal-3-e-50pcs.html

 

The a-series blocks a newer/nicer than the p-series.  Loxone used only to sell the older ones, but I see they have the new ones now.  So I'd personally get:

 

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-interconnected-20pcs.html   (buy one box of these and take out the interconnects where you don't need it, rather than buying both varieties)

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/installation-terminal-block-aitb.html (dimmed, switched lighting circuits)

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/motor-terminal-block-amc.html.  (motors, blinds, curtains)

 

You also need some of the end-caps and might want to think about labelling.  If you don't want full boxes of terminal blocks have a look at Rexel/BPX/TLAUK who sell a lot of things in smaller quantities.

 

Then, most people don't use power distribution (instead daisy-chaining live between relays), but I used the Weidmuller AAP11 range power distribution blocks to go from 1 RCBO-> n dimmers or n relays.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Dan F

[jack]

On 17/08/2023 at 17:20, joth said:

Ok so yes, I completed second fix of my 2nd install today, and I'm much happier with how the CAT6A termination into the cabinet is looking, if still not perfection.

 

Top left corner:

 

To recap, my approach here is I'm still not using external 110 pushdown but instead use 8 way din terminal blocks to fully terminate every incoming CAT6 core (hopefully once and for all), and then any changes (of which we've had a couple already) are made on the internal cabinet lacing side of the terminal block rather than rewiring the external facing CAT6 side.

 

This looks great!

 

Not spending the extra time/money to terminate all incoming CAT6 cables, either as you've done it or with a 110 block, is one of my biggest regrets with our Loxone installation.

[Dan F]

On 17/08/2023 at 17:20, joth said:

To recap, my approach here is I'm still not using external 110 pushdown but instead use 8 way din terminal blocks to fully terminate every incoming CAT6 core (hopefully once and for all), and then any changes (of which we've had a couple already) are made on the internal cabinet lacing side of the terminal block rather than rewiring the external facing CAT6 side.

 

I've done the same but instead used a terminal block per CAT cable, rather than two terminal blocks per twisted pair. I then used jumpers to supply 24v and tree to each block.

 

I think both approaches have their merits but in my case, I went with the "horizontal" approach because:

- I have >16 incoming CAT cables.

- It makes it slightly easier to understand (before labelling)

- I needed to be able to split the incoming tree connections between two tree buses (and adjust this based on the cumulative number of devices).

 

If you have <12 incoming CAT cables then the horizontal approach may also make sense as it would take up less space and use fewer terminal blocks.

 

EDIT: Actually, now I remember I used:

- 1 CAT cable per terminal block where DIs (blue/brown) are being used or may be used.

- 2 CAT cables per terminal block where I know it is only tree/24v.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Dan F

[joth]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

The a-series blocks a newer/nicer than the p-series.  Loxone used only to sell the older ones, but I see they have the new ones now.  So I'd personally get:

 

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-interconnected-20pcs.html   (buy one box of these and take out the interconnects where you don't need it, rather than buying both varieties)

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/installation-terminal-block-aitb.html (dimmed, switched lighting circuits)

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/motor-terminal-block-amc.html.  (motors, blinds, curtains)

Ah I'd missed the subtleties of a Vs p series and see I'd linked one from each series. Thanks for the clarification.

Do you know if a and p line up if intermixed, can one interconnect bar span 2+E blocks from both series? 

[Dan F]

3 hours ago, joth said:

Ah I'd missed the subtleties of a Vs p series and see I'd linked one from each series. Thanks for the clarification.

Do you know if a and p line up if intermixed, can one interconnect bar span 2+E blocks from both series? 

 

I've got mostly the old P-series ones (from Loxone as it was all they sold at the time).  I got the A-series ones for DALI terminations as I wanted do to 230v/DALI/230v/DALI etc. and with the A-series, you can use 4 cross connectors (knocking out every other pin) to achieve this.  I also like the fact they have the orange "buttons" to release.

 

I don't have any of the new AMC blocks, but you can see online that they don't line up.  Also, the two series use slightly different cross connectors, which is another reason to try to stick to one of the two series, apart from the fact that PMAK is no longer manufactured so you couldn't easily extend later.