YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[joth]

29 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

yes, and this is what's concerning me for extra costs. a second mini-server running the studio with separate relays/dimmers/24V LED controllers etc. so, basically, a mini Loxone setup that is 'slave' to the main setup in the basement comms room. I think I'm setting myself up for a fall here if I do go this route!

 

I still don't understand, why would you need a second miniserver?

 

[jack]

35 minutes ago, joth said:

I still don't understand, why would you need a second miniserver?

 

Agreed.

 

Any necessary extensions could be placed locally in the studio and connected to the miniserver via the Loxone link. That's a single cable, the same as you'd need for a separate miniserver.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, joth said:

I still don't understand, why would you need a second miniserver?

 

 

1 hour ago, jack said:

 

Agreed.

 

Any necessary extensions could be placed locally in the studio and connected to the miniserver via the Loxone link. That's a single cable, the same as you'd need for a separate miniserver.

well, maybe I don't though! I was just thinking that rather than running lots of cables for lighting, sockets, occupancy sensors etc all the way from the comms room in the basement, I thought having a 'secondary' system local to the garage/studio would be beneficial/easier.

 

but, I'm getting the impression that it's a waste of time and I should simply run cables from the comms room to the garage and studio from the single central location and forget about my fanciful/expensive ideas!

 

maybe a quick plan would help?

 

 

so, the sub-station would have a CU, network switch, a 'secondary' loxone cabinet to control lights, sensors etc. so there would be a single fibre/network cable from the sub-station back to the comms room to handle network traffic. a loxone cable to connect the two cabs together (although I get the impression that wouldn't be needed) and a beefy electric cable to run a second CU.

 

that would mean I wouldn't need to run a ton of network cables, lighting cables, power cables, loxone cables etc. they could then be short runs back to the sub-station cupboard which then has a single 'trunk' cable for each thing back to the comms room. 

 

does that make more sense?

[jack]

53 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

does that make more sense?

Sort of. The principle of not running everything in parallel a long distance from the central cabinet makes sense, but not your original reference to adding a miniserver.

 

The point I was making is that, if you need whatever combination of relays, dimmers and inputs for this studio, you just need whatever extensions are required for those functions. You don't need the cost/complexity of a second miniserver at that spot.

 

The only downside is that there's a risk you'll end up with an extra extension or two overall, depending on how you split out the functionality. For example, if you need 5 dimmers in one cabinet and 11 in another, you'll probably need an 8-channel dimmer and a 16-channel dimmer if you split them as described above, whereas if they're all central, a single 16 channel would do.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, jack said:

Sort of. The principle of not running everything in parallel a long distance from the central cabinet makes sense, but not your original reference to adding a miniserver.

 

The point I was making is that, if you need whatever combination of relays, dimmers and inputs for this studio, you just need whatever extensions are required for those functions. You don't need the cost/complexity of a second miniserver at that spot.

 

The only downside is that there's a risk you'll end up with an extra extension or two overall, depending on how you split out the functionality. For example, if you need 5 dimmers in one cabinet and 11 in another, you'll probably need an 8-channel dimmer and a 16-channel dimmer if you split them as described above, whereas if they're all central, a single 16 channel would do.

ok, so second miniserver isn't needed! check.

 

so if I had, for example, a small cabinet/rack with a din rail that had a single Loxone relay unit and a stereo extension and an RGBW dimmer. how would I get those to talk back to the miniserver? what cable(s) would need to be in my 'trunk' back to the cabinet?

[jack]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

ok, so second miniserver isn't needed! check.

 

so if I had, for example, a small cabinet/rack with a din rail that had a single Loxone relay unit and a stereo extension and an RGBW dimmer. how would I get those to talk back to the miniserver? what cable(s) would need to be in my 'trunk' back to the cabinet?

 

It's just the Loxone link, which is the cable that links the miniserver and its extensions. The extensions don't have to be in the same cabinet - you have several hundred metres total length to play with:

 

https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/loxone-link

[Thorfun]

36 minutes ago, jack said:

 

It's just the Loxone link, which is the cable that links the miniserver and its extensions. The extensions don't have to be in the same cabinet - you have several hundred metres total length to play with:

 

https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/loxone-link

Thank you so much! Didn’t know about that. I have some more reading to do!!

[Thorfun]

Well, that reading didn’t take long! So a single cat6A cable should do it then. 
 

will think some more on the whole sub-station idea and talk to my electrician next week when he’s down. 

[Rob99]

45 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

So a single cat6A cable should do it then

Based on what you have suggested is going in your second cabinet you will need a Loxone Link connection for the relay extension, a Tree link for the RGBW dimmer and a Tree Turbo link for the stereo extension. That would be 3 pairs in a single cat6A might be pushing it as you'll only be left with 1 pair spare as back up if wiring issues occur in future. You could add in a Tree extension which would only then need Loxone Link and Tree Turbo cables, but you might prefer to just run a couple of cat6A cables to give you some comfort from a bit of redundancy and future options. I presume it's only one stereo extension your're putting in.

 

And just to confirm what others have mentioned, you definitely don't need a second miniserver.

 

 

[jack]

Ah yes, thanks @Rob99. No tree tech in my setup (installed 2015) so didn't even consider that.

[Thorfun]

thank you @Rob99 @jack and @joth. it all makes a lot more sense now. out of interest (and maybe a question you can't or shouldn't answer!) but if you were in my position would you just run the multiple cables back to the main comms room or go for the sub-station as I've outlined? I'm in two minds! 

 

it's probably cheaper to run cables back as I'd have to purchase a network switch and, potentially, extra relays/dimmers/RGBW controllers. but it's a lot more work initially and and having a sub-station might make future expansion easier.

[joth]

What airtightness goal are you going for? How many times would the cables need to cross the boundary? How long are the cables?

 

As I mentioned, I did the sub-main option, and am advising that for another build I'm helping with. But that's largely driven by airtightness strategy in both cases. (and actually in both cases the meter head is in the outbuilding making it a no brainer)

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, joth said:

What airtightness goal are you going for? How many times would the cables need to cross the boundary? How long are the cables?

 

As I mentioned, I did the sub-main option, and am advising that for another build I'm helping with. But that's largely driven by airtightness strategy in both cases. (and actually in both cases the meter head is in the outbuilding making it a no brainer)

The studio is part of the main house so any cables up there will not penetrate the Airtightness layer. The garage is outside the airtight layer but that’ll be a ring for sockets and EV chargers. And a few ceiling lights. So very few penetrations. 

[joth]

15 hours ago, Thorfun said:

The studio is part of the main house so any cables up there will not penetrate the Airtightness layer. The garage is outside the airtight layer but that’ll be a ring for sockets and EV chargers. And a few ceiling lights. So very few penetrations. 

I'd make the studio part of the house CU circuits and dimmers then, for minimal penetration. and put a 3phase SWA to the garage ready for EV chargers, and a couple of CAT6A for whatever you might need in future. 

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

Just now, joth said:

I'd make the studio part of the house CU circuits and dimmers then, for minimal penetration. and put a 3phase SWA to the garage ready for EV chargers, and a couple of CAT6A for whatever you might need in future. 

 

 

 

and that makes sense. it is kind of what I was thinking of doing but by putting the garage CU in the cupboard off the garage that cupboard is inside the house airtightness layer and so any connections to the garage would need to penetrate the layer. so I guess it kind of defeats the object of having a garage CU outside of the airtight layer!

 

thank you very much for your opinion and ideas. I will speak to the electrician about it next week when he's down but am definitely leaning in the direction you have suggested. 

[Thorfun]

ps. I might run a fibre cable and a couple of cat6a cables to that cupboard off the garage anyway for future potential use. got nothing to lose really apart from some £s in cable.

[jack]

7 hours ago, Thorfun said:

ps. I might run a fibre cable and a couple of cat6a cables to that cupboard off the garage anyway for future potential use. got nothing to lose really apart from some £s in cable.

 

A duct or two (with draw cords) would be a good idea as well. Saves you speculating about what you might need in the future. 

[Thorfun]

47 minutes ago, jack said:

 

A duct or two (with draw cords) would be a good idea as well. Saves you speculating about what you might need in the future. 

It’s a long and convoluted route from the comms room in the basement to that cupboard! Might make any ducting impractical for pulling cables through. 

[Thorfun]

evening Loxoners. I'm resurrecting this thread as I'm putting together a shopping list to start wiring up my cabinet and getting ready to second fix components.

 

so far I have this:

• Tri-rated solid core hookup cable (1mm and 1.5mm)
• Gel filled crimps
• Crimp tool

Looking at terminal blocks on the Loxone website there are 2 types, separated and interconnected.

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-20pcs.html

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/push-in-terminal-block-8x4-interconnected-20pcs.html

 

how do I know what to buy? and how do I work out how many I need?

 

what else do I need to add to that list?

[joth]

You need to make a doc (spreadsheet) of all the things in the cabinet and what they all need to connect to.

Methodically work through all incoming cables, and all devices, to make a mapping

 

Any device that needs connected to many outgoing cores (power lines, Tree, etc) you can use interconnected blocks for, everything else is probably and individual blocks. 

I find it best to arrange the blocks according to the external wiring, to avoid lots of mess with CAT6 wires all over the place. The internal hookup wires can be routed flexibly according to external needs. In the extreme this means you can do everything with non-inconnected blocks: one per cat6 cable, and do interconnects manually by daisychaining jumps between the terminals as needed. 

Mine tend to be more of a hybrid, with orange and green pairs going to interconnected blocks, and the browns and blues going to individual terminals. 

 

HTH

 

Maybe I can make a photo... 

[joth]

Here's an example of a spreadsheet I have mapping cat6 runs through the terminal blocks into cabinet devices. 

The highlited rows show that the brown core on cat6 cables LX1.1 and LX1.2 plug into Level 1 and 2 of block #6, and connects then to miniserver digital inputs 1 and 2 respectively.

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, joth said:

You need to make a doc (spreadsheet) of all the things in the cabinet and what they all need to connect to.

Methodically work through all incoming cables, and all devices, to make a mapping

 

Any device that needs connected to many outgoing cores (power lines, Tree, etc) you can use interconnected blocks for, everything else is probably and individual blocks. 

I find it best to arrange the blocks according to the external wiring, to avoid lots of mess with CAT6 wires all over the place. The internal hookup wires can be routed flexibly according to external needs. In the extreme this means you can do everything with non-inconnected blocks: one per cat6 cable, and do interconnects manually by daisychaining jumps between the terminals as needed. 

Mine tend to be more of a hybrid, with orange and green pairs going to interconnected blocks, and the browns and blues going to individual terminals. 

 

HTH

 

Maybe I can make a photo... 

thanks. Great idea to start with a list of everything and mapping it out. I’ll make a start on that soon. 
 

a photo would be ace and I will be revisiting (for the “I’ve lost count”-nth time!) your Loxone cabinet thread to zoom in on those photos. 

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, joth said:

Here's an example of a spreadsheet I have mapping cat6 runs through the terminal blocks into cabinet devices. 

The highlited rows show that the brown core on cat6 cables LX1.1 and LX1.2 plug into Level 1 and 2 of block #6, and connects then to miniserver digital inputs 1 and 2 respectively.

I bet that’s a big spreadsheet! 
 

thank you so much for this. It’s definitely given me a place to start. 

[joth]

My cabinet is a mess, as I arranged terminals purely for what was convenient for internal cabinet lacing, which left the cat6 side a complete jungle of wires.

 

The screenshot above is for another I'll be installing in the next few weeks. Learning from my own, I'm arranging it to optimise more for consistent layout on the cat6 side. Even connecting up unused cores, just so they're all accounted for 

I'll let you know how that goes and post photos if it's something I feel a bit more proud of 😂

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

The highlited rows show that the brown core on cat6 cables LX1.1 and LX1.2 plug into Level 1 and 2 of block #6, and connects then to miniserver digital inputs 1 and 2 respectively.

So terminal block #6 is a separated terminal block, right?