Handling/Negotiating minor changes mid-build

[puntloos]

Since i'm sure this type of thing will come up during our build, could someone walk me through how negotiations go with a fixed price build? I'll give an example: 

 

My ceiling design is one way, that was priced into the builder's fixed price quote, but @Adsibob suggested here to effectively lower the ceiling 15mm and insert one extra layer of insulation. Again, just an example, but it feels like a minor change in principle...

 

Let's say we're now mid-build and I go to the builder with the suggestion...  can someone talk me through what would happen? Is it as simple as "here's GBP 12345monies and the builder does it", or would there be a whole process where the architect gets flown in and the structural engineer has to recertify everything and...

 

Basically I hear horror stories when people suggest changes to the design mid-way and I'd like to know what to expect, or perhaps what type of contract terms to have to limit the outrageousness of what the builder would ask?

[Simplysimon]

if no need for achitect or se then most changes are done on a 'day rate' and paid for accordingly. if design changes then achitect will charge accordingly and builder will charge the same day rate to complete

[Roundtuit]

Interesting question! Depends on how significant the change is.  We had a timber frame.  If I wanted to move a doorway 400mm, it was sucking of teeth and back to the drawing board.  If they'd somehow managed to omit an internal doorway in the frame, it was sorted on site same day...

 

I think honest and open communication on both sides is key.  Your builder needs to be upfront about the implications for him/her (including the impact on their other commitments), and then you can decide whether the change is worth the cost.

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, Simplysimon said:

if no need for achitect or se then most changes are done on a 'day rate' and paid for accordingly. if design changes then achitect will charge accordingly and builder will charge the same day rate to complete

I think I'll need to make sure I know what the day rate is!

[JohnMo]

I would agree an hourly rate for changes ahead of signing any agreement.

 

Things like double plasterboard should be decided well ahead of a build starting.  My view is once build has started the only changes are when there has been a real mess made of a design aspect, so the there is a material clash and something cannot be constructed.  Thermal insulation sound transmission should be fixed and not changed at the design stage.

[Gus Potter]

23 hours ago, puntloos said:

Since i'm sure this type of thing will come up during our build, could someone walk me through how negotiations go with a fixed price build? I'll give an example: 

 

My ceiling design is one way, that was priced into the builder's fixed price quote, but @Adsibob suggested here to effectively lower the ceiling 15mm and insert one extra layer of insulation. Again, just an example, but it feels like a minor change in principle...

 

Let's say we're now mid-build and I go to the builder with the suggestion...  can someone talk me through what would happen? Is it as simple as "here's GBP 12345monies and the builder does it", or would there be a whole process where the architect gets flown in and the structural engineer has to recertify everything and...

 

Basically I hear horror stories when people suggest changes to the design mid-way and I'd like to know what to expect, or perhaps what type of contract terms to have to limit the outrageousness of what the builder would ask?

 

22 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

I think honest and open communication on both sides is key.

Roundtuit has hit it on the head and good point / thread @puntloos

 

Any competant builder knows that 99.9% of jobs will involve some changes at some point.

 

Maybe a starting point is to put yourself in the builder's shoes when priicing / selling the job. Do you know much about the Client? Have they got a good reputation for paying? What is their personality?  Do they listen to you and what kind of questions are they asking? When you seek clarity on say a detail.. how do they respond? If technical.. do you get a quick response from their design team? A lot of domestic Clients just won't do anything to help themselves here and this introduces uncertainty to the builder. If you don't know something just ask the builder and see how they respond, don't be embarressed.

 

An experienced buildier when pricing up a job will often spot design / buildability flaws / opportunities for improvements. Do you tell the Client at this stage? You risk getting off on the wrong foot with the Architect / SE etc or just coming over as knowing too much.. trying too hard to get your foot in the door! In other words builders are looking for indicators on how smoothly the relationship will develop, if they get the job. Good relationships often = greater security on the expected profit margin thus a builder may be a bit less heavy with the "hassle factor" element of their price. 

 

If you go for the fixed price then have the conversation about making changes. The context is important. Again in the builders shoes. Say the price was based on two storeys with say a 30 -36 week programme and you turn round and say you just want one storey and the builder knocks off a lot less than you expect. Now the builder still has the over heads, needs to find other work and so on, hence not the price reduction you expect. The otherside is you ask for say a larger hot water cylinder that can be easily accommodated architecturally and structurally and the builder says this will result in a two week delay and the scaffold needs to stay up for longer.. daft example but.. have seen some daft arguements made in the past.

 

One simple way is to say to the builder.. look I may want to make some changes that won't impact on the critical path of the job. Give me your day rates for the different trades and what uplift you want by way of profit on any extra materials you supply. Also give me the rates if we make a change that involves a bit less work.. if we say use a cheaper slate / tile or a larger tile (thus less of them) on the roof say. Ask.. will you knock off the difference or the difference plus profit? Just ask them innocently (no smiling) how this works and how they have managed this on their other builds.

 

Best to get this out in the open early and then you can decide if this is someone you would employ.

 

A good thing here is it lets you set out some ground rules / bench mark should you later want to make a major change, you can refer back to the early discussions, just make sure you have it writing somewhere.

 

If you can, make sure you have a good understanding with you design team. Even if you got just a basic design, went for the cheapest to get you this far go back and ask your SE / Architect what they will charge to keep a watching brief, be at the end of the phone. It will be money well spent. Often if the builder knows that your design team are keeping an eye on things it can be enough to keep them in check.  It can avoid both you and the builder doing something that in all honesty you think is ok but turns out to have a major impact on the structural or Architectural design.

 

Common mistakes folk make are indeed moving a doorway / window, adding extra load to a floor / ceiling by way of extra plasterboard etc. You and the builder may look up and say, no change in the vertical load so ok.. SE may say.. I was relying on this to provide sway stabiliity (stop your house moving sideways) or restraint to a major load bearing wall. Architect may say.. you have breached the fire regs, changed the daylight, ventilation, compromised an access / activity space or some other clause in the building regs and BC are going to pull you up on this etc.

 

Lastly you mention a fixed price contract. There is a big difference between the builders own contract and a recognised industry contract! The former is to be treated with extreme caution!