Critique my quotes.. - here we go

[puntloos]

My house design is here - as a reminder

- 300sqm house (excludes loft)

- High insulation, high airtight, SAP 100A+ 

- Close to the center of a sought after commute-to-London town. (wonder how much that plays into the quotes, but nothing I can do there)

 

Here's the two quotes I received so far, combined into one comparison doc by my QS

- contractor 1 is overall cheaper, so the combined doc is using them as the 'focal' point,  but some things stand out where c2 is cheaper. Inquiring minds want to know if we can talk c1 down to c2's price on those items, but I imagine contractors build various cost buffers into their quotes to make it work, and being too rough with them on particulars is unfair? Or?

 

My questions of course:
- Are any of the (larger?) items of contractor1 outlandish? I'd love responses such as "you can buy xyzitem today at abccompany for mnomonies"

- Do the provisionals seem right?

- Anything missing or any other obvious weirdnesses?

- Why is it all so pricey when people who live further out can reach 1500? 2000/sqm? 

- Sure, labour is more pricey because cost of living for the builders is higher, but that's only a smallish part of the full price. What are we doing wrong when it comes to materials?

 

Thanks for taking a look. I've tried to keep things anon out of respect for the quotes, so if I let any names through please respect their privacy etc. 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by puntloos

[bassanclan]

Quick glance, but item 39, contractor 2 is at £700 for 46sqm blocks?

[JohnMo]

Million pound build and concrete roof tiles, really?

 

Hope you getting a huge array for the cost of the PV.  Otherwise you are wasting money.

 

You seem to be double dipping with a heat pump for heating and another for cooling, could they not be combined.  A heat pump that does cooling and the ufh heating then engage a single system to cool or heat?  You are having UFH which is out of sight, then adding fan coils which are in your face to look at and to blow air at you.

[puntloos]

First, thanks for looking, it's a lot to go through.

34 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Million pound build and concrete roof tiles, really?

Well, I agree that I could use fancier materials but from a functional perspective I didn't see a benefit (and given how far away the tiles are from eyelevel I don't think the difference in visuals isn't big enough to notice so I care(d) more about practicalities such as availability. What material would you suggest? Slate? Any particular reason? 

 

34 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Hope you getting a huge array for the cost of the PV.  Otherwise you are wasting money.

Meaning the cost suggests it's large but if it's one measly panel it would be expensive? Worth reminding myself again, absolutely, off the top of my head it's covering the sun-facing side completely, 21sqm but they have to work around the windows so effectively I guess 18sqm, but not the flat roof. 

 

34 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

You seem to be double dipping with a heat pump for heating and another for cooling, could they not be combined.  A heat pump that does cooling and the ufh heating then engage a single system to cool or heat?  You are having UFH which is out of sight, then adding fan coils which are in your face to look at and to blow air at you.

 

True, but this was quite a deliberate choice back when I made it. At this point it is certainly worth value engineering again though, so thanks for reminding me. The reason is simply that overheating is the number one problem I see with these high insulated houses, and the additional cost of doubling up on the outside devices (2 smallish ones vs 1 bigger one) is pretty low, you still have to dig the path, pour the foundation etc. 

 

More importantly, with lots of glazing, and well, global warming, I expect urgent cooling, especially on the 1st floor to be important. I've been hearing very mixed stories about switching water(UFH) ASHP to cooling - condensation is tough to avoid. And water-based FCUs also are not as efficient as A2A ones (since we are really talking A2W2A vs A2refrigerant2A which is a big difference. 

 

It's certainly an item I could axe if I need the money (and yes, I need to be cost conscious, this build cost far exceeds what I was hoping for when I started this project)

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, bassanclan said:

Quick glance, but item 39, contractor 2 is at £700 for 46sqm blocks?

That indeed sounds.. suspiciously low. 

[JohnMo]

Roof slates and integrated PV.

 

We have UFH in bedrooms but I am not sure it's a good choice, if you are having fan coils any way, not not use then for heat and cooling. Reason I think not a good choice, the floor takes an age to heat up and cool back down again.  So you go to bed in a warm or hot room that stays like that the rest of the night.  Radiators or fan coils quick to heat and the heat doesn't hang about that long after.  The A2A should do heating also.

 

Yes lots of glazing and well insulated warm house. 16 to 17 for the last few days, the odd bit of sun, house hasn't dropped below 22 even with doors and windows open.  Internal or external blinds are a must have.

[puntloos]

38 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Roof slates and integrated PV.

Yep - I might pivot to slate, and certainly taking a quick look how much PV I can staple on to my roof effectively, the shape isn't ideal for it, I could consider removing the sun-facing velux windows.. 

 

Might start a separate topic on advanced PV yield calculation

 

 

38 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

 

We have UFH in bedrooms but I am not sure it's a good choice, if you are having fan coils any way, not not use then for heat and cooling. Reason I think not a good choice, the floor takes an age to heat up and cool back down again.  So you go to bed in a warm or hot room that stays like that the rest of the night.  Radiators or fan coils quick to heat and the heat doesn't hang about that long after.  The A2A should do heating also.

Yeah, I'm suspecting maybe I should do away with my upper floor UFH (UFCooling) given my FCU's can certainly heat as well as cool, but heating rarely is an issue.

38 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Yes lots of glazing and well insulated warm house. 16 to 17 for the last few days, the odd bit of sun, house hasn't dropped below 22 even with doors and windows open.  Internal or external blinds are a must have.

 

Yeah I'm going with awnings downstairs and in-window blinds are at least high on my list.. external blinds.. tend to look somewhat ugly but I could be persuaded

[JohnMo]

Two rows of panels between the roof windows, fully integrated no need to slate in those areas.

 

We didn't do external blinds just internal, with roof overhangs for summer shading.

[puntloos]

On 24/07/2022 at 15:29, JohnMo said:

Two rows of panels between the roof windows, fully integrated no need to slate in those areas.

 

Yep, I started another topic on this one but not knowing much about practicalities of putting panels into a roof (rather than on a roof) - shape, size of trays, how are they connected? One tray per panel or one big tray with multi panels etc, I think I can do away with a bunch of slate as you mentioned. 

 

On 24/07/2022 at 15:29, JohnMo said:

We didn't do external blinds just internal, with roof overhangs for summer shading.

By "internal" I assume you mean inside triple glazed? Or oldschool, inside the house?

[JohnMo]

One tray per panel, is the norm.

 

Internal blind - normal roller blind for example, fits inside window reveal. Old school.  Or just close the curtains.

[PeterW]

On 24/07/2022 at 13:16, puntloos said:

That indeed sounds.. suspiciously low. 

Not really. You can get lightweights for 95p a block and I’ve seen them quoted at £1 laid so it’s not stupidly low. 
 

C2 is much cheaper when you look at it, but is miles off (over double) on the lighting and electrical. You need to ask why - and also why are you spending £60k on lighting !! You may be better with a contractor to watertight and then subs on the rest. 

[Indy]

Without having gone through the quote in detail, your cost/m2 is roughly in the region of what I've been getting for a similarly sized house in the South East (Surrey in my case). £3.5k/m2 for a full turnkey build and that includes a generous provision for PC sums. Does the total sum include demolition, clearing of the site as well as the foundations?

 

I will end up referring to your sheet in the future for when I do detailed costings on mine (as soon as the damn planning gets approved, 3 weeks over the date and counting 😠)

[JohnMo]

Just been looking at some other prices and some are plain daft.

 

AV installation £70 to 80k

Over £60k for electrical install incl lights

 

MVHR, not sure how you design to building regs and passivhaus standards as they ask for different flow rates.

 

Seems to kicking in around £100k for plumbing and heating.

 

Item 067b, would advise not to full fill partition walls with insulation, as it needs an air gap to perform best, 50mm would be a better choice.

 

Been looking but cannot find ground floor installation?

 

[puntloos]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

One tray per panel, is the norm.

 

Internal blind - normal roller blind for example, fits inside window reveal. Old school.  Or just close the curtains.

 

Ha, well, I do have "air conditioning" so internal blinds could work but in my current house the amount of heat that gets caught between glass and blinds is huge, and it clearly leaks into the house to a noticeable degree. Perhaps the recent heatwave made me extra paranoid about heat being trapped inside the house unintentionally but.. 

[puntloos]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

Not really. You can get lightweights for 95p a block and I’ve seen them quoted at £1 laid so it’s not stupidly low. 
 

C2

Ah, contractor 2. I was trying to understand what you meant. 

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

is much cheaper when you look at it, but is miles off (over double) on the lighting and electrical.

And C2's labour is much more expensive. 1000/week vs 1500/week on the foreman for example. 

 

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

You need to ask why - and also why are you spending £60k on lighting !!

Well to be clear, the architectural lighting is 23k all-in 

Quote detail is here

 

When it comes to AV - Quote is here - yep, 60K..

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

You may be better with a contractor to watertight and then subs on the rest. 

 

Financially, yes. But phew. I don't think I have it in me (time, but also, risk, expertise)

[PeterW]

£2.5k for 2 IP cameras and an NVR..???!! 
 

I’ll do it for £1.5k, and I’ll even get the cameras colour coded to match whatever nail varnish Mrs Puntloos requests…

 

20 days PM for installs ..? They are having your pants down ..!!

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, Indy said:

Without having gone through the quote in detail, your cost/m2 is roughly in the region of what I've been getting for a similarly sized house in the South East (Surrey in my case). £3.5k/m2 for a full turnkey build and that includes a generous provision for PC sums.

Gone are the days of 2500/sqm - and that was 2019

 

4 hours ago, Indy said:

Does the total sum include demolition, clearing of the site as well as the foundations?

 

Yes, my understanding is this is everything included except a few professional fees and misc small things (contract admin, QS, asbestos, utilities) 

4 hours ago, Indy said:

I will end up referring to your sheet in the future for when I do detailed costings on mine (as soon as the damn planning gets approved, 3 weeks over the date and counting 😠)

 

Ha, well, keep me up to date, any insights always welcome although I suspect my decision on all this will come soon.

 

One very tough question is if it's ever going to be cheaper (again). It's rarely a good idea to put your life on hold for such things but you know... covid and brexit are "somewhat" on the way out.

[puntloos]

19 minutes ago, PeterW said:

£2.5k for 2 IP cameras and an NVR..???!! 
 

I’ll do it for £1.5k, and I’ll even get the cameras colour coded to match whatever nail varnish Mrs Puntloos requests…

 

To be clear I have different nail varnish every 3 days so we need at least 2 sets of cameras.

 

19 minutes ago, PeterW said:

20 days PM for installs ..? They are having your pants down ..!!

 

Does it say installs specifically, or labour? Because for installs that seems high, however the programming of an advanced smart home system (that includes heating, cooling, awnings, blinds etc etc) starts to become a bit of a task..

[PeterW]

39 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Does it say installs specifically, or labour? Because for installs that seems high, however the programming of an advanced smart home system (that includes heating, cooling, awnings, blinds etc etc) starts to become a bit of a task..

It’s the PM (project management) time. What are they doing for that ..?? Industry standard is 15% PM time of overall Labour on that sort of thing - count the days to do all the “work” and then take 15% of it to be reasonable. 
 

45 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Gone are the days of 2500/sqm - and that was 2019

Really ..?? Not seeing £100/M floor finishes or anything in your spec ..? That should be pretty achievable (given the £50k automation stuff) if done right, especially with the spec on the roof tiles etc. 

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Just been looking at some other prices and some are plain daft.

 

Thanks for looking into it, it is helping me a ton. Sadly I don't quite understand every point you make, below.. 

 

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

AV installation £70 to 80k

Yeah, this one can certainly lose some fat, but I do think that having a big sensor array in every room (I am hoping for at least light, co2, temp, humid, voc, pm2.5 sensor for each room, not to mention separate smoke as per reqs) and wiring them into a central brain is quite a challenge.

 

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Over £60k for electrical install incl lights

Well the actual equipment quote of 23,000 is "quality stuff".. it's certainly worth considering to go to "GU10 downlighters" so to speak but I imagine that even if you switch the entire lighting system to "IKEA" you will not drop below 10,000.. so yes, 13,000 for premium is, until I really need to make painful cuts.. not too bad? Or am I way off?

 

and 30K (contractor1) 60K (contractor2) for installation. Do you think 30K is unreasonable for a 300sqm house install+supply of basics (mostly power sockets and cabling, the rest is in the AV section)?

 

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

MVHR, not sure how you design to building regs and passivhaus standards as they ask for different flow rates.

Are you saying BR and PH are fundamentally disagreeing on what flow rate the MVHR should be set to? I suppose just picking the larger one is OK and turning it down if 'the other team' comes to check?

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Seems to kicking in around £100k for plumbing and heating.

That's contractor 2, yes. Too much? C1 asks 57,000

 

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Item 067b, would advise not to full fill partition walls with insulation, as it needs an air gap to perform best, 50mm would be a better choice.

Hmm, I guess it's a balance between sound and air?

I think I care less about insulation (inside the house, not in-to-outside) 

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Been looking but cannot find ground floor installation?

 

Embarassing question but what is ground floor installation? It sounds like I should know..

[puntloos]

17 minutes ago, PeterW said:

It’s the PM (project management) time. What are they doing for that ..?? Industry standard is 15% PM time of overall Labour on that sort of thing - count the days to do all the “work” and then take 15% of it to be reasonable. 
 

Got it, but if I add up all the project management line items it comes to 8.25 days? Where do you see 20?

 

17 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Really ..?? Not seeing £100/M floor finishes or anything in your spec ..? That should be pretty achievable (given the £50k automation stuff) if done right, especially with the spec on the roof tiles etc. 

True, so... where does the 1000/m2 go towards? Do you think this quote is structurally unreasonable? 

As before I do wonder how much buffer they are building into various pots here and there to make sure they don't get swatted by "another ukraine" or something, but would love to have a generic verdict (also the discussion here is getting to that so that's cool too )

[Indy]

I do agree that getting a reputed contractor or builder to quote for less than £3.5k/m2 is fanciful thinking, especially in the pricey parts of the south east.

 

Not that it can’t be done. You either roll up your sleeves and take charge of the project by taking on the PM role and finding subcontractors to do the job, OR you can take a punt on smaller/relatively unknown builder who’s trying to establish themselves.

Not sure which I’m going to go personally but I’ve been getting much more reasonable quotes on the latter approach - c£2k/m2. Not a fully top end finish (no home automation or arrays of sensors for example), but mid to high end finishes and certainly no skimping on anything material.

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

Yeah, this one can certainly lose some fat, but I do think that having a big sensor array in every room (I am hoping for at least light, co2, temp, humid, voc, pm2.5 sensor for each room

Why? Sounds like over kill.  Main living space and main bedroom have a multifunctional sensor. £150 to £200 each.  They can be stand alone items, we have mains wired CO2, temperature in lounge and bedroom.  What benefit is there wiring it all into a central brain, bit lost with that one.

 

MVHR, leave it as stand alone item, manual boost switch at each wet room, possibly auto humidity boost.  Job done.  Look at filters every sex months replace if required.  A big house tends to be very over ventilated rather than under.  

 

MVHR, comparison 

[Buzz]

On 23/07/2022 at 23:17, puntloos said:

- Why is it all so pricey when people who live further out can reach 1500? 2000/sqm? 

HI @puntloos i think the answer to this question is less about the quality of what you are building and more to do with how you are choosing to build it , so for context. 

Our build is also 300m2 but is a bungalow so 300m2 of foundations and 440m2 of roof we also have 120m2 of loft space which we have installed the roof lights x5 and put 22mm flooring down and have insulated at rafter level but have boarded over the stair well and will leave for another time . 

we employed a groundworks contractor to take the plot from a muddy field up to DPC , this included the both drainage systems but not the final connection to the mains sewer .

We then employed a general builder to construct the main structure , this included all brick/block work, steelwork, floor joists, flooring, glulam beam, cut roof , all roof tiling and guttering. 

Windows and doors by decent local supplier 

1st fix plumping and electrics , small local company that does both, i laid the dpm and floor insulation and 2nd dpm they fitted UFH. 

Floor screed by local firm 

1st fix carpentry a mix of me and local lad on day rate as and when needed / nights weekends 

Boarding and plastering by local small firm.

MVHR , online design, brought the kit and fitted it myself .

we should be in a position to start painting this weekend , that will be me as well along with a local painter and decorator on day rate as and when needed  / nights weekends 

My SAP calcs tell me that the floor is .12 the walls .17 and roof is a mix of .12 and .10 (vaulted areas) 

 

I have taken a look at the quotes that you have posted and would love to be able to advise on where you could keep the same quality at a reduced price by changing brands or supplier but the prices on the quotes i am struggling to relate to . 

 

Looking at C1's preliminary's Item A 004 site laborer is quoted at 45 weeks @ £216 P/W for a total of £9720 i suspect that is the day rate and should read 45 weeks @1080 P/W for a total of £48600. 

 

It seem that the price of your build is linked to the value of the finished product (I will make these numbers up) valuation of finished home 1.5M - plot value 400K = 1.1M build cost. 

 

To give you an idea of how expensive they look to me, Contactor 2 wants £218820 for his Preliminary's ,  i have done all of the above for a similar amount. 

 

 

 

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

I do agree that getting a reputed contractor or builder to quote for less than £3.5k/m2 is fanciful thinking, especially in the pricey parts of the south east.

 

Not that it can’t be done. You either roll up your sleeves and take charge of the project by taking on the PM role and finding subcontractors to do the job, OR you can take a punt on smaller/relatively unknown builder who’s trying to establish themselves.

Not sure which I’m going to go personally but I’ve been getting much more reasonable quotes on the latter approach - c£2k/m2. Not a fully top end finish (no home automation or arrays of sensors for example), but mid to high end finishes and certainly no skimping on anything material.

 

Yeah quite so. Also I keep contrasting it with real house asking prices. For a house of this scale (say 250m2+) in my area, most of them of course are 1970s houses extended in early 2010. And then they land at 2.25M, which is 9000/sqm, not even counting the stamp duty. I do feel that I'm getting better value for money even with a full service team.. but I would love to tighten that statement up and back it up by numbers etc so this topic has been very helpful already..